ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

CABINET OFFICE

The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked-

Civil Service Compensation Scheme

Katy Clark: What recent discussions he has had with trade union representatives on reform of the civil service compensation scheme.

Francis Maude: I wrote to the chairman of the Council of Civil Service Unions immediately after making my statement to the House on 6 July. I have invited the unions to begin discussions with us on developing a sustainable and affordable long-term successor to the current civil service compensation scheme. I met the unions yesterday, and my officials have had further meetings with them.

Katy Clark: I thank the Minister for that answer. As he will appreciate, thousands of civil servants currently face losing their jobs as a result of this Government's policies. Will such people be able to rely on their contractual terms?

Francis Maude: It is common ground that the current civil service compensation scheme is unaffordable. The hon. Lady's own Government attempted to introduce a new scheme that introduced modest changes to the current scheme. That was agreed by five out of the six civil service unions, but sadly, the sixth did not agree, went to the High Court, and had it struck down. The result is that savings that had been scheduled to be made by the previous Government now cannot be made, so there is an additional cost. I have taken the view that it is not responsible to leave matters as they are. Nor is it fair to leave in limbo for ever people who know that there is, through no fault of their own, no job for them for the future, which has been the case for some time.

John Leech: Does the Minister accept that any plans severely to restrict redundancy payments for hundreds of thousands of low-paid civil servants will be seen as a kick in the teeth for thousands of workers who have faced uncertainty about their jobs over the past few years, and who face uncertainty in the future?

Francis Maude: It is precisely for that reason that I want to engage quickly with the unions to negotiate additional protection for low-paid workers. Contrary to general belief, large numbers of civil servants are not very well paid-half of them earn £21,000 a year or less-and we want there to be extra protection for them. I want to engage as quickly as possible with the unions to negotiate an arrangement that has not only fairness but accountability built into it.

Paul Goggins: Last week, the Minister said that his proposals may not have been necessary if the Public and Commercial Services Union had joined the other five trade unions in agreeing to the previous Government's reform package. That being so, will he start his negotiations with that package, which would have saved £500 million over three years and protected the lowest paid?

Francis Maude: As I say, we are very keen to have proper protection for the lowest-paid workers. Had that scheme been in existence when the coalition Government came into office, a pressing case would have been made to leave it as it was and work on that basis. That option is no longer on the table, so it seemed to us right to look at a scheme that is sustainable for the long term. The previous revised scheme made only relatively modest changes, and it was still way out of kilter with anything available under the statutory redundancy scheme or, indeed, throughout most of the private sector.

Paul Goggins: I am grateful for that answer. However, it is hard to take the Minister seriously about these negotiations when after all the press speculation, and more than a week after he sent his letter to the trade unions, the 600,000 staff who are affected still have no details of what he is proposing other than the threat of a 12-month cap on redundancy payments to all staff. Why should the lowest-paid staff-the junior official in a jobcentre-be treated in exactly the same way as the permanent secretary of a Government Department?

Francis Maude: It is precisely my intention that that should not be the case. That is why I want to engage with the unions quickly to develop a scheme that protects the lowest paid. It is quite a complicated thing to do-it is not capable of being done in the course of a Bill-so we need to negotiate it. I want to ensure that it works and is effective in providing fairness, but is also affordable. I hope that we can engage with this as soon as possible. I have made it clear to the unions that it is our intention not only to negotiate on the ceiling that is available for voluntary redundancy schemes but to provide protection for the lower paid.

Government Projects (Consultants)

Amber Rudd: What plans he has to review arrangements for the use of consultants for Government projects.

Francis Maude: In May, we announced an immediate freeze on the use of consultants. Where there is an operational necessity and the work cannot be carried out by in-house staff, any new consultancy spend above £20,000 a month must be signed off by a Minister. In addition, all consultancy spend, whether pre-existing or newly approved, must be re-approved on a rolling basis every three months. Processes are now in place whereby both my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary and I must personally approve any request to employ a consultant beyond nine months.

Amber Rudd: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Has he considered the fact that by reducing the use of consultants, we will be able to help public servants to develop their own careers more successfully, and that that will have the added advantage of protecting jobs, because we can keep the work with them rather than putting it out to consultants?

Francis Maude: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The excessive use of consultants-we discovered that there were 2,500 consultants embedded in Whitehall across Government-is not only expensive and a wasteful use of money but demoralising for mainstream civil servants, who feel that they are undervalued. By cutting back on the use of consultants we can begin to re-equip the mainstream civil service with the professional skills that it wants.

Christopher Leslie: Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will not employ any consultants at all on the experimental free market schools strategy at the Department for Education? I am sure I heard a rumour that the Government had paid half a million pounds to the New Schools Network.

Francis Maude: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that if there are any consultants being used, that will have been signed off personally by a Minister in the Department for Education and will be made public online shortly. He should address his question to my colleagues in that Department and scan the website for notification.

Voluntary and Community Sectors

Fiona Bruce: What plans he has to reduce the regulatory burden on the voluntary and community sectors.

Jane Ellison: What plans he has to reduce the regulatory burden on the voluntary and community sectors.

Helen Grant: What plans he has to reduce the regulatory burden on the voluntary and community sector.

Oliver Letwin: We thoroughly accept the implication of the question. Voluntary organisations are subject to much too much regulation and monitoring. That is why, in addition to the important work that Lord Young is doing on reducing the impact of health and safety legislation and the compensation culture on those organisations, we are about to launch a specific taskforce to examine the impact of regulation on small organisations. We hope to announce the chair of that taskforce very shortly and that it will complete its work by next spring.

Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for his answer. One of the key areas of the Government's big society project is to encourage volunteering. However, it is accepted that in many disadvantaged areas there are lower levels of volunteering. For example, school governor places remain vacant. Will he consider how we can break down the barriers, whether regulatory or otherwise, that deter a broader number of people from coming forward to volunteer, particularly in disadvantaged areas?

Oliver Letwin: The short answer to my hon. Friend's question is yes. She is absolutely right that we need to break down those barriers, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education is currently looking at how we might do that.
	It is important to note that the accusation that is sometimes made that school governors will need to have Criminal Records Bureau checks is not correct. Unless those governors are involved in working with children in school on a day-to-day basis, all that needs to be checked is the list 99 bar. We are, of course, also looking at how we can reduce CRB checks to a common-sense level and at the vetting and barring regime. I hope that all those things will help persuade people that it is well worth doing important voluntary work.

Jane Ellison: All over the country this Sunday there will be "big lunch" street parties, and Battersea is no exception. In my area it has been greatly facilitated by the council issuing a flat-rate charge for street closures with an easily completed form, and generally being accommodating and encouraging. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we should encourage all councils to do that?

Oliver Letwin: I congratulate my hon. Friend on her part in getting that to happen, and her council on taking that admirable attitude. One reason why we are so keen to decentralise and to give councils much more responsibility and power is precisely that they can then take sensible local initiatives of that kind to encourage local and community groups to flourish, which of course is part of our big society agenda.

Mr Speaker: Order. May I just appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to face the House so that we can all enjoy his mellifluous tones?

Helen Grant: What plans does my right hon. Friend have to extend longer-term funding to voluntary sector organisations so that they can do more?

Oliver Letwin: I should say, Mr Speaker, that no one has previously accused me of having a mellifluous tone.
	My hon. Friend is on to something enormously important. It is not just that we need to extend additional funding-it is much more than that. We need to involve the voluntary sector in a whole range of massive reform programmes. We hope to see it involved in schools, in the rehabilitation revolution, in the work programme, in drug and alcohol rehabilitation and in much else besides. We are moving away from the micro-management of processes in contracts and towards a very exciting new world of payment by results, so that voluntary organisations can use their talents and initiative to achieve real results.

Albert Owen: One of the biggest barriers to volunteering and volunteer groups is taxation, not just the increase in VAT that was voted through last night but the level of taxation that volunteer drivers have to pay on their mileage. Will the Ministers please talk to HM Customs and the Chancellor about the increase in that taxation, in line with the petrol duty increase over the past decade?

Oliver Letwin: The hon. Gentleman tempts me to do something that a ministerial career cannot long survive-speak for the Chancellor of the Exchequer on tax matters. I certainly undertake to continue the discussions with the Chancellor, which I have on all occasions, about how he can further our general programme to favour community groups in the voluntary sector. That is high on his agenda as well as ours.

Ian Lucas: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that increasing the rate of VAT for charities will help them deal with the real difficulties of over-regulation?

Oliver Letwin: It appears that there is a combined effort on the Labour Benches to persuade me to adopt the role of a Treasury Minister, which I am not and cannot do. Of course, we are conscious of the burdens that fall on the voluntary sector. However, for many people in that sector, a framework that enables them to do what they do best, in a way that achieves results, is what really counts. My response to my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) is the response to that.

Big Society Bank

John Glen: What progress he has made in establishing the Big Society bank.

Nick Hurd: The Government are committed to setting up that independent wholesale bank to develop the market for social investment. It will be funded by dormant bank accounts and I will work with ministerial colleagues to establish it by April 2011.

John Glen: When visiting the River Bourne community farm in my constituency in Salisbury and many other community groups, I found that one of their big concerns is the bureaucracy that they might face when accessing the funds from the Big Society bank, though they are encouraged by its creation. Will my hon. Friend confirm the process and the means whereby small community groups, which do not have the information, can access those much needed funds?

Nick Hurd: The intention is for the bank to be as independent and unbureaucratic as possible. It will be a wholesaler, not a retailer, so it will support intermediaries that are growing the market for social investment. If it invests in social enterprises in Salisbury, it will do so through intermediaries that have structured financial products, such as social impact or community bonds that connect private capital with the opportunity for good, and for social impact.

Brian H Donohoe: Has the Minister had any discussions with credit unions? The big idea of a bank is very similar to what already exists. Why reinvent the wheel?

Nick Hurd: I have had a series of discussions with several intermediaries in the marketplace that are in the business of trying to encourage and support social investment. The intention is for the bank to stand behind and support those intermediaries to allow them to do more.

Civil Servants (Terms and Conditions)

Christopher Chope: What recent representations he has received from trade unions on proposed changes to the terms and conditions of employment of civil servants.

Francis Maude: I met the Council of Civil Service Unions yesterday. The main issue discussed was the proposed changes to the civil service compensation scheme, which I covered in my reply to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark).

Christopher Chope: Did my right hon. Friend discuss yesterday a subject of great public concern: civil servants on average have higher pay, get better pensions, work shorter hours and have longer holidays than their private sector counterparts, and they also have lower productivity? What are the Government doing about that?

Francis Maude: Public sector productivity generally fell in absolute terms in the past 12 years, whereas private sector productivity rose by between 20 and 30%. There is therefore a problem with productivity in the public sector. However, I must tell my hon. Friend that median pay in the civil service is lower than that in the private sector, but pay in the wider public sector is higher.

George Howarth: Does the Minister think that a career in public service is a good thing?

Francis Maude: Yes, 100%, which is why I adopted one.

Voluntary Sector

Mark Spencer: What plans he has to support the voluntary sector.

Nick Hurd: As the House has heard, we intend to reduce the bureaucratic burdens on the sector and get more resources into it, not least through the Big Society bank and a new community grants programme. We want to reform commissioning to make it easier for voluntary sector organisations to compete for public sector contracts.

Mark Spencer: Rumbles is a charity in my constituency that provides training for young people with learning difficulties. It has enjoyed a good relationship with local colleges, supplying national vocational qualifications, but recent budgetary pressures have put the whole system under threat. What will the Minister do to help support the relationship between local colleges and local charities and volunteers?

Nick Hurd: I thank my hon. Friend for giving me advance notice of his specific constituency interest. I have liaised with the Department for Education, which is very clear that the voluntary sector has an important role in ensuring that all 16 to 18-year-olds can access learning opportunities that best suit them. However, the Department pointed out that it is for colleges to decide what their learning offer should be. On a more constructive note, if Rumbles believes it has a learning offer that will fill a gap in the 16-to-18 learning market, it should discuss it with the local authority and seek to become a 16-to-18 provider in its own right.

Voluntary Sector

Alun Michael: What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the compact between the Government and the voluntary sector.

Nick Hurd: The right hon. Gentleman has a long-standing interest in this area. The Government are fully committed to the compact, as the Prime Minister stated when he launched the big society programme at No. 10 on 18 May. That is why my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General has written to Ministers with responsibility for the big society agenda to ask them to consider the compact as decisions on in-year budgetary savings and efficiencies are taken.

Alun Michael: I welcome the Minister to his new responsibilities, and I am sure that we will look at the detail of this matter in the coming months. Departments and Government agencies are large and powerful, whereas voluntary organisations are generally small and innovative. Does he therefore agree that supporting the compact process is an important responsibility of Ministers across Departments, as is ensuring fairness in how Departments deal with the voluntary sector organisations that are vital to their work?

Nick Hurd: I totally understand the right hon. Gentleman's point. That is why we have set up a group of Ministers with responsibility for the big society agenda. The first meeting of those Ministers will be chaired by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General next week. The compact and our plans to strengthen the transparency and accountability of its implementation will be on the agenda.

Efficiency Savings

Richard Ottaway: What efficiency savings have been identified by his Department's efficiency and reform group.

Francis Maude: We have identified significant scope for efficiency savings through a variety of means, including moratoriums on information and communications technology spending of more than £1 million, on consultants costing more than £20,000 a month, on advertising and marketing spend, on new websites and on new or renewed property leases. Other means include a freeze on recruitment, the procurement of goods and services for the whole Government using our aggregated scale to drive down prices, removing discrepancies such as the variation of 170% in the cost of a standard computer monitor, and renegotiating with the Government's biggest suppliers on a portfolio basis to take out excessive cost. I met the 20 biggest suppliers to the Government last week to kick that process off. That is just the beginning; there is much more to do.

Richard Ottaway: In the light of that important answer, does my right hon. Friend remember the pledge given in 2006 by the previous Government to reduce dramatically the 794 websites that they ran at that time? Accordingly, was he as astonished as I was to discover just a few weeks ago that the number of websites had actually grown to 820? What is he doing to reduce that inefficient use of public resources?

Francis Maude: My hon. Friend is completely right that the result of the previous Government's attempt to cut the number of websites was actually a significant increase. We will take urgent steps to cut the number of websites, particularly in relation to those that compete with each other. I discovered that the Department of Energy and Climate Change was bidding against the Carbon Trust for spots on Google, which is one indication of the lack of discipline in that field.

Paul Goggins: Has the efficiency and reform group made an assessment of the Government's programme for converting 800 schools into academies at a cost of £495 million over the next four years? In particular, has the group formed a view on whether that represents good value for money when set against the loss of hundreds of new school buildings following the cancellation of the Building Schools for the Future programme?

Francis Maude: That was a very good effort from the right hon. Gentleman, but we believe that the coalition's programme to increase the number of academies is very valuable. It is part of the process of giving much more power to parents, and of giving the schools that are available for local people the ability to reflect what they want rather than what central planners dictate.

National Citizen Service

Graham Evans: What progress has been made in setting up a national citizen service.

Julian Smith: What progress he has made in establishing a national citizen service.

Francis Maude: The coalition Government are committed to introducing a national citizen service to give young people an opportunity to develop the skills needed to be active and responsible citizens, mix with people from different backgrounds and get involved in their communities in order to promote engagement, cohesion and responsibility. Details of this programme will be announced by the Cabinet Office later this year, with a launch expected in 2011.

Graham Evans: The national citizen service will provide a vital outlet, especially for disadvantaged young people in my constituency of Weaver Vale. How can we ensure that this group of young people get involved?

Francis Maude: The whole point is to bring together young people from different backgrounds, rather in the way that national service was a great leveller. People from all sorts of backgrounds and geographies came together to work together, and that did promote cohesion. We are especially concerned that young people from disadvantaged backgrounds should not be excluded from this process. I hear what my hon. Friend says and it would be good if one of the pilot schemes next year could involve disadvantaged young people from his constituency.  [ Interruption. ]

Mr Speaker: Order. An enormous number of private conversations are taking place in the Chamber, and it is not only unseemly, but unfair on the Member asking the question and on the Minister to whose reply we all wish to listen.

Julian Smith: North Yorkshire county council has four fantastic outdoor education centres, including Bewerley park in Nidderdale in my constituency. I suspect that my right hon. Friend does not have time for potholing, but would he come and meet me so that I can show him how those four centres could deliver on the national citizens programme?

Francis Maude: It is not so much not having the time for potholing as not having the inclination. However, I would of course be delighted to meet my hon. Friend to discuss these very desirable locations with which he tempts me.

Voluntary Sector

Robert Halfon: What plans he has for future Government support for local voluntary groups; and if he will make a statement.

Nick Hurd: We want to encourage more people to set up and join local voluntary groups, and we want those groups to have much more influence over the issues that affect their communities. Our plans include the training of new community organisers, who can be fantastically effective in that context, and a new community grant programme to help put money in the hands of neighbourhood groups to implement their own neighbourhood plans.

Robert Halfon: Is the Minister aware that in Harlow the big society has been operating for some time? Will he agree to visit successful charities such as the Michael Roberts charitable trust and Rainbow Services, which are ready to pilot the big society reforms, independently of Government and at the heart of the community?

Nick Hurd: I am delighted to hear that the big society is alive and well in Harlow, and I know that my hon. Friend is a passionate advocate of the values that underlie it. I am happy to confirm to him that I will visit Harlow on 29 July and I look forward to seeing what is being done, what we can learn from and what we can build on.

Nigel Dodds: Does the Minister share my concern that many voluntary and community organisations that deliver public services and value for money could be targeted unfairly for cuts in the present economic environment if sufficient and proper consideration is not given to their efficiency and effectiveness?

Nick Hurd: I share that concern, and that is why I am working with colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government and our strategic partners to try to identify examples of best practice, especially where local authorities are working in a partnership with the voluntary and community sector to manage this difficult transition carefully.

Gavin Barwell: I welcome what my hon. Friend said about the community grant fund, especially given the difficult financial climate that many local authorities face. Can he tell us more about the timing of that fund?

Nick Hurd: The programme is subject to approval in the comprehensive spending review, but all being well our intention is for it to be operational early next year. The focus will be on trying to provide grass-roots community grants to deprived areas that are characterised by high levels of economic deprivation and low levels of social capital.

Efficiency Savings

Steven Baker: What efficiency savings have been identified by the efficiency and reform group.

Francis Maude: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to Question 8.

Steven Baker: The last Government spent a fortune on advertising themselves. How will this Government make savings in that area?

Francis Maude: We established at an early stage a moratorium on new advertising and marketing spend. Any exceptions to that moratorium have to come to me personally, and I am delighted to find that remarkably few applications are being made for exceptions. The amount of taxpayers' money spent by the Government on advertising and marketing has been significantly reduced. At the end of the year, I expect to be able to show a very significant reduction in what was being spent by the last Government on what I have to say was a pretty incontinent basis.

PRIME MINISTER

The Prime Minister was asked-

Engagements

Tom Blenkinsop: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 14 July.

David Cameron: I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to our soldiers who have died in Afghanistan over the last week. They are Bombardier Samuel Robinson, 5th Regiment Royal Artillery; Marine David Hart, 40 Commando Royal Marines; and a Marine from 40 Commando who died yesterday. We also pay tribute to the three soldiers from 1st Battalion the Royal Gurkha Rifles who lost their lives yesterday and to their comrades who were injured. We believe this incident was caused by the actions of an Afghan soldier betraying his Afghan and international comrades. I spoke to President Karzai about this issue yesterday, and a joint investigation by the Afghan authorities and international forces is under way, which will cover every aspect of the incident and the lessons to be learned from it.
	I have to say that there should, however, be no knee-jerk reaction and no change in our strategy. We must continue to work with the Afghan army to create a stable Afghanistan able to maintain its own security and to prevent al-Qaeda from returning. At this very sad time, our thoughts should be with the families and friends of all these brave servicemen. What they do on our behalf is brave, courageous and shows their dedication and professionalism. It is right that we pay tribute to them.
	This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others and, in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

Tom Blenkinsop: I would like to echo the warm words of the Prime Minister about our service personnel serving abroad.
	Will the Prime Minister join me in praising One NorthEast and Redcar and Cleveland Labour council for helping develop a £600,000 regeneration plan for the market town of Guisborough in my constituency in order to help small business? Is it not the case, however, that for those who run small businesses, the Government's VAT increase is the real jobs tax?

David Cameron: First of all, I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the House. I know he used to work for Ashok Kumar, who was widely liked and respected across the House of Commons. What we are doing to help small business is to cut the small business rate of corporation tax. We think that is the best help we can give. The future for small business will, of course, also be helped by our local enterprise partnerships, which we think will be much more focused, much more local and will deliver better than the regional development agencies they replace.

Nicky Morgan: Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating the Loughborough university student union rag committee, which as well as providing many volunteers to local groups has this year raised more than any other rag in the country-more than £1 million, including raising £34,000 in one day for the Royal British Legion? Is not this an example of the big society in action?

David Cameron: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. She is absolutely right. Sometimes students can get a bad press for what they do, but we can see from the example of Loughborough that they have focused on doing things for other people and raising money for charity. They should be congratulated.

Harriet Harman: I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Bombardier Samuel Robinson, 5th Regiment Royal Artillery; to Marine David Hart, 40 Commando Royal Marines; to the Marine from 40 Commando Royal Marines who died yesterday; and to the three soldiers from 1st Battalion the Royal Gurkha Rifles who lost their lives yesterday and those who were injured. Everyone will share the Prime Minister's concern about what happened. It is right to have a thorough investigation, but as he said, we must not lose sight of the importance of the work our troops are doing in Afghanistan.
	May I ask the Prime Minister about Northern Ireland? Although it is now highly unusual for people in Belfast to see such violence on their streets, everyone will be worried about the events of recent days. Will the Prime Minister update the House and tell us what discussions he has had with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister? Although this is a devolved responsibility, will he join me in paying tribute to the professionalism and bravery of the men and women of the Police Service of Northern Ireland?

David Cameron: I certainly join the right hon. and learned Lady in paying tribute to that police service. Anyone watching the pictures on our television screens last night could see how brave and how restrained the police were in the way that they dealt with behaviour that was, frankly, completely unacceptable. To update the House, last night was the third night of violence, the most serious of which was in the Ardoyne district in north Belfast. Over 80 police officers have been injured after being attacked with, for instance, petrol bombs, pipe bombs and bricks. The police came under fire on Sunday night, and shots were fired again last night. The police have been forced to retaliate with battle rounds and water cannons, but, as I have said, I think that anyone who watched what they did or who, like me, has had a briefing from David Ford, the Policing and Justice Minister, will know that they acted with real restraint.
	I keep in touch regularly with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who has been in Belfast as well, to ensure that everything that needs to be done is being done. As the right hon. and learned Lady knows, however, this is a devolved issue, and, having devolved policing and justice, we should allow David Ford, and the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, to give the lead that they are indeed giving.

Harriet Harman: I am grateful to the Prime Minister for his answer. I reiterate what I said earlier: we will continue to support and work with the Government in their efforts to ensure a peaceful future for all the people of Northern Ireland.
	This week the Government published their White Paper on the national health service. They say that they will get rid of targets. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether patients will keep their guaranteed right to see a cancer specialist within two weeks of seeing their GP?

David Cameron: May I first make one further response on the Northern Ireland issue, with which I think everyone will agree? Now that we have a police service that is fully representative of the whole community in Northern Ireland, there is no excuse for anyone not to co-operate with that police force. We all know that in the end these things are not dealt with just by the police; they have to be dealt by the communities as well, working with the police to bring people to justice for completely unacceptable behaviour.
	As for the NHS, what we have decided is that we will keep targets only when they actually contribute to clinical outcomes. We all want to see a higher cancer survival rate. I am afraid that, after 13 years of Labour government, we have not the best cancer outcomes in Europe, and we want the best cancer outcomes. That means rapid treatment, yes, but it also means rapid follow-up, and it means people getting the radiotherapy, chemotherapy and drugs that they need. Those are all essential. The one thing that we on this side of the House will do is continue to put real-terms increases into the NHS, whereas I understand that it is now Labour policy to cut the NHS.

Harriet Harman: Quite apart from the anxiety of having to wait, results are best if treatment starts as soon as possible. That is why it is important to be diagnosed and to see a specialist quickly.
	The Prime Minister has not answered the question. The whole House will have seen that. He has dodged the question, just as his Health Secretary did. This is what the Health Secretary said in the House when he, too, was dodging the question:
	"I have not said that we are abandoning any of the cancer waiting-time targets at the moment".-[ Official Report, 29 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 698.]
	I ask the Prime Minister to give us a straight answer. Will cancer patients keep their guarantee to see a specialist within two weeks-yes or no?

David Cameron: For some people, two weeks is too long. That is the whole point. If a target contributes to good clinical outcomes, it stays; if it does not, it goes.
	Now let the right hon. and learned Lady answer a question. Is it your policy- [Interruption.] I know that the right hon. and learned Lady is not involved in the leadership election, which basically involves sucking up to the trade unions, but she is capable of answering a question. Is it Labour policy to cut the NHS?

Mr Speaker: Order. I hope that the right hon. and learned Lady will confine herself-as I know she will want to do-to her role, which is not to answer questions but to ask them.

Harriet Harman: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Prime Minister has still not answered. He is obviously ditching the guarantee for cancer patients, but he has not the guts to admit it to the House. Perhaps he can be more straightforward with this question. The White Paper says that his reorganisation of the NHS will mean extra up-front administration costs, but it does not give the figure. Surely he must know the figure. How much extra will it cost next year?

David Cameron: We are cutting £1 billion of administration from the NHS. We are cutting administration costs by 45% over the next Parliament. Obviously Labour Members cannot answer questions, because they have no answers, but perhaps it is not unfair to point out that they are now defending the bureaucracy of the NHS. We say that the primary care trusts and the strategic health authorities-all that additional bureaucracy-should go. We want the money to be spent on treatments, on patients, on doctors and on nurses. The right hon. and learned Lady is left defending the vast bureaucracy that saw the number of managers go up far faster than the number of nurses. Is that still Labour policy?

Harriet Harman: The Prime Minister is talking about longer-term speculative savings, but he has not answered my question. It is no good him resorting to his usual ploy of asking me questions. I am asking about the real costs of his reorganisation next year-the very time when he says his priority will be cutting administration and cutting the deficit. The White Paper admits that there will be extra costs because of loss of productivity, staff relocation and redundancy. Does the Prime Minister stand by what he said just a few months ago about NHS reorganisations? He said:
	"The disruption is terrible, the demoralisation worse-and the waste of money inexcusable."

David Cameron: We are not reorganising the bureaucracy; we are scrapping the bureaucracy. Is it really Labour's great new tactic that the right hon. and learned Lady will be left defending the bureaucracy of primary care trusts and strategic health authorities and all the quangos and all the bureaucrats, all of whom are paid vast salaries and huge pensions? Is that the new divide in British politics: they back the bureaucracy, we back the NHS?  [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) should calm himself. If he is trying to catch my eye, he has not got much chance at this rate.

Bob Russell: Voluntary organisations and charities were not responsible for the banking crisis, nor for the financial crisis left by the last Labour Government. As we both value voluntary organisations and charities, will the Prime Minister discuss with his Treasury colleagues how the increase in VAT that those organisations have to pay can be refunded to them?

David Cameron: I will certainly have those conversations with the Treasury, and we will want to do everything we can to help what used to be called, rather condescendingly, the third sector but I believe is the first sector: the excellent charities, voluntary organisations and social enterprises that do so much for our country. One thing we should do is look at funding them on the same basis as the Government fund themselves. The Government are always very generous with their own bureaucracy, and they need to recognise that so often these first sector organisations have the right answers to the social problems in our country.

Lilian Greenwood: Will the Prime Minister guarantee that firefighters and police officers, who we all rely on to undertake dangerous and physically demanding jobs, will retain the ability to retire and access their occupational pensions before reaching state pension age?

David Cameron: First, may I welcome the hon. Lady to the House? I will look very carefully into what she says. As she knows, we have a review of pensions taking place, which is being carried out by the former Labour Minister, the former Member for Barrow and Furness, who has great expertise in this area. He will be making two reports, one before Christmas and another in the new year, where we can look at the issue of public sector pensions and try to reach some fair resolutions-and I think that is something all parties should be involved in.

Chris Heaton-Harris: Will the Prime Minister consider having another conference call with Mark Zuckerberg, co-founder of Facebook, whose site is currently hosting the group "RIP Raoul Moat", where a whole host of anti-police statements are posted? Can the Prime Minister have a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg about removing this group?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. As far as I can see, it is absolutely clear that Raoul Moat was a callous murderer-full stop, end of story-and I cannot understand any wave, however small, of public sympathy for this man. There should be sympathy for his victims, and for the havoc he wreaked in that community; there should be no sympathy for him.

Valerie Vaz: In 2005, the pupils of Joseph Leckie community technology college made a DVD depicting their crumbling school. The Labour Government gave them £6 million. Morally and legally their legitimate expectation was to have their funding continued, so please will the Prime Minister ask the Secretary of State for Education to take some time out from his "I am sorry" tour of the country to meet me in Walsall South and explain his decision-the fifth version-to Joseph Leckie school, and also to Alumwell business and enterprise college?

David Cameron: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be happy to meet the hon. Lady, whom we should all welcome to this House. Presumably, she has come here to keep an eye on her brother and to see what he has been up to. Let me just say this about the apology tour. I think there is something quite refreshing about a Minister who makes a mistake, comes to the Dispatch Box and makes an apology.  [ Interruption. ] They have got their hands in the air-the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) has got his hand in the air. Can anyone put their hand up if they ever remember him apologising for anything, ever? He can start by apologising for the fact that for the last three years, he has been telling us that the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) is actually the best thing since white sliced bread, and now we are being told that he is mad, bad and dangerous.

Nicholas Boles: The BBC Trust has described BBC 1 and BBC 2 as boring. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the gaiety of the nation would be immeasurably enhanced by the televising of a 17-part psychodrama called "New Labour", with Lord Mandelson playing himself?

David Cameron: I think-

Mr Speaker: Order. Much as it might be fascinating to hear the Prime Minister's reply, I do not think it is a matter of Government responsibility at all.

Hugh Bayley: Taking account of the measures in the Budget and the briefing the Prime Minister has received from the Treasury, does he believe that unemployment in the north of England in 12 months' time will be higher or lower?

David Cameron: What you can see from the Office for Budget Responsibility forecast is that, according to it, there will be a fall in unemployment in every year during this Parliament. That is because, like others-like the OECD, which made it so clear yesterday that the Budget is courageous, responsible and right-we are putting this country back on the path to prosperity from the complete picture of ruin that the last Government left.

Nadine Dorries: Thanks to the massive deficit left by Labour, all but two departmental budgets are to be cut by between 25% and 40%. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether we are about to see a 40% reduction in the funding sent to Brussels, and is the European budget also to be cut?

David Cameron: It is very true to say that all international organisations have to recognise that, as we make painful budget reductions in this country, they should be looking to their budgets also. I have to say that one thing we will not be doing is giving up part of the rebate for absolutely nothing in return, which is what Labour did.

Angus Robertson: Phase 2 of the Ministry of Defence strategic defence review is currently reporting back. Under consideration for closure and cutback in Scotland are two of three airbases, the only Royal Marine base in the country, minesweepers on the Clyde and aircraft carrier contracts-and that is before we even get to the Army. We expect regimental and battalion amalgamations and the remaining command functions at Cragiehall to go, and there is also the question of the future of Fort George and the Territorial Army network. Does the Prime Minister not understand that this is a wholesale destruction of conventional defence capability in Scotland?

David Cameron: Obviously, we have to have a defence review, as the Opposition recognise. I always find the position of the Scottish National party on this quite confusing. I did not think that the SNP was in favour of having a British Army, a Royal Air Force or the British Navy. Perhaps if the policy has changed- [ Interruption. ] What we will be having is a defence review, and if the hon. Gentleman wants to make a submission to it he is very welcome to do so. I am sure it will be taken extremely seriously.

David Davies: As far as I am aware, it is not standard practice in the public sector for workers to fund and equip their offices out of their own pockets, and then to negotiate a bureaucratic obstacle course in order to get the money back-if they are lucky. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether he thinks this a good system for Members of Parliament, or whether it is undermining efforts of MPs in all parts of this House, who want to offer a good service to their constituents?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

David Cameron: My hon. Friend asks a popular and well-placed question- [ Interruption. ] I will answer him seriously; I think it is important. What we wanted to have and what is necessary is a properly transparent system, a system with proper rules and limits which the public would have confidence in, but what we do not need is an overly bureaucratic and very costly system. I think all those in the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority need to get a grip of what they are doing, and get a grip of it very fast.

David Simpson: May I, along with my colleagues on these Benches, pay tribute to those who have lost their lives in recent days in Afghanistan-I join the Prime Minister in that-and to the police officers in Belfast who have been injured? May I specifically mention a Gurkha who lived in my constituency and was killed, tragically, over the past days? I visited his home last night, speaking at length to his family and, in particular, his father. They were very proud of the fact that he had achieved so much in his short life. His ambition was to be an officer with the Gurkhas. He was commissioned this year, he went to Afghanistan in March and he died in July. Can the Prime Minister assure this House that whatever investigation is held will be thorough and that details will be given to the family? May I say in closing that this House will know that, when it comes to the Crown forces, young men and women of Northern Ireland have never been found wanting? Today, we have lost another son and we hope it is the last.

David Cameron: The hon. Gentleman pays a very eloquent tribute to his constituent. He is right to say that we need an inquiry that gets to the bottom of what happened in this tragic, although I believe isolated, case. There is nothing you can say to parents who have lost a child that will help with the sense of grief and loss; there is nothing you can do. But it is important that they get the information to try to help achieve some sort of closure on what has happened. That is one of the many reasons why this review will be so important. Let me just say that there are now about 5,000 British troops that are fully partnered with Afghan forces, working together day and night. When we hear their stories about how well they are working together it does gives us hope that we are building an Afghan army that we will be able to hand over to. We must not lose sight of that, in spite of all the difficulties.

Stephen Hammond: Three years ago, the Conservative council in my constituency recognised the need for a new primary school. It identified the site and, having sorted out the financial mess that the Labour council had left before it, committed the funding. Despite being left the funds, the Labour council leader is now publicly failing to commit to building this school. Does the Prime Minister agree that my constituents should conclude that this is the reality: the Labour party is saying one thing and doing another, and is endangering schoolchildren's education?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes not only an important local point, but a very important national point, which is that Building Schools for the Future did nothing for primary schools. There is actually a growing problem of a shortage of primary school places, which was not being addressed by the previous Government but which will be addressed by this Government.

John Robertson: The Prime Minister will be aware of members of his own party using parliamentary rules to try to undermine the national minimum wage. Can he, here and now, dedicate himself to maintaining the national minimum wage, not only ensuring its support, but ensuring that it increases in line with inflation in the years to come?

David Cameron: I can absolutely give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. We support the national minimum wage, we support its regular updating and that is one of the many good things set out in our coalition agreement.

Angie Bray: In south Acton, the Acton Community Forum is piloting an extremely good scheme called "Generations Together", which is all about encouraging each generation to pass on its own skill sets to each other; basically, it is about getting the community to help itself. Does the Prime Minister agree that this is an excellent example of what the big society is all about?

David Cameron: I agree. I have to say to Labour Members, who sort of sigh every time an hon. Member actually mentions a worthwhile charity, voluntary body or project that is doing something in their communities, that we are going to change the way we do politics in this country. Instead of endlessly talking about the money that goes in, let us talk about the outcomes that come out. I think that that is a better way of doing things.

Karen Buck: I am delighted to report that GCSE pass rates have doubled in Westminster in recent years and four brand-new schools have opened. This week, the Prime Minister was quoted as saying that he was "terrified" of his children attending a local school. May I ask him to swallow his fear and instead join me in acknowledging the enormous progress that has been made, particularly in London's secondary schools, in recent years?

David Cameron: I am pleased to say that my children attend a local school in Conservative-controlled Kensington and the other part of her constituency, Conservative-controlled Westminster. Of course there are good schools in London and of course progress is being made, but like any parent looking at the state of secondary education, you want to know that there are going to be really good schools, really good choice and a diversity of provision. That is what we are going to ensure and I hope that the hon. Lady will vote for it when the time comes.

Andrea Leadsom: Is the Prime Minister aware that I and colleagues had the privilege of a visit this week from the Royal Anglian Regiment. Will he join us in thanking them for their amazing professionalism and for the work that they do for us?

David Cameron: I will certainly do that. The regiment's members have served in Afghanistan on a number of occasions and on one occasion I met them in Helmand province and heard them speak about some of the incredibly difficult decisions that they had to take and some of the very brave things they had done. We should recognise that we have been in Afghanistan in one form or another since 2001. Many soldiers are going back again and again. That puts pressure on them and on their families and it just means that we need to redouble everything we do to support their families and our brave servicemen and women.

Russell Brown: Dr Kieran Breen, the director of Parkinson's UK, has been on the BBC this morning discussing the start of a clinical study in Oxford using skin cells. All of us in this House want to see ongoing research into finding answers to degenerative conditions such as Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Will the Prime Minister assure the House that despite the global economic conditions this Government will not cut back on their funding for medical research?

David Cameron: No one wants to see reductions in those programmes-they are very important-but, like everything else there is a comprehensive spending review- [ Interruption. ] It is no good Opposition Members making that point-whoever was standing here right now would have to look at public spending programmes and make sense of them. I have to say that they should perhaps listen to the speech that the shadow Trade and Industry Secretary is going to make this afternoon. Quite rightly, he is going to say that fighting
	"the cuts is a tempting slogan in opposition...But if that is all we are saying the conclusion will be drawn that we are wishing the problem away."
	We have a new problem in British politics. They are called "deficit-deniers" and I am looking at a whole row of them.

Nadhim Zahawi: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the case of Mr Nur and his family, who have moved into a £2,000 a week house in Kensington at taxpayers' expense, is exactly the sort of thing that the coalition was elected to fight against?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The housing benefit situation, particularly in central London, has got completely out of control. The idea that a family should be able to claim £2,000 a week for their house is an outrage for people who go to work every day, pay their taxes and try to do the right thing for their family. That is why we will cap housing benefit levels from April next year so that the maximum that can be claimed will be £400 a week for a property with more than four bedrooms. Many people on ordinary incomes will look even at that £400 and find it to be very generous help for people. Every penny of that comes out of hard-earned taxes.

Angus MacNeil: The coalition agreement mentions rural fuel derogations. My constituents in the Outer Hebrides pay more fuel tax per litre than just about anybody in the UK. However, there is no mention of VAT in the coalition agreement, and that will affect road transportation. Is it not reasonable, surely, to ask for a rural fuel derogation before January, when the VAT rise comes in, in the interests of respect and fairness?

David Cameron: We are looking at the rural fuel issue and obviously the hon. Gentleman has a friend, as it were, in the Treasury in the Chief Secretary, who also has a large rural Scottish constituency. I know that the issue will be considered seriously and that discussions will be had. When we have something to say, we will come back and talk about it.

Andrew Stephenson: In the week of the NHS White Paper, will the Prime Minister resist calls-wherever they come from-to cut the NHS budget?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. Yes, we have to take difficult decisions but, when we look at the NHS, we know that there are expensive drugs coming down the track, expensive treatments and an ageing population, and more children born with disabilities and living for longer. There are cost pressures on our NHS that mean that even small real-terms increases will be an heroic thing to achieve. I think that the Opposition have completely lost touch and lost their senses to think that you can somehow cut the NHS.

Lindsay Roy: As a former head teacher, I endorse the commitment given by the Prime Minister to improving discipline in schools and in education more widely. May I ask him what special measures he, as the Head of Government, plans to invoke in relation to his Education Secretary, who has failed to do his homework properly on five occasions in the past week?

David Cameron: In the week of the Mandelson memoirs-to get a lecture on ill discipline. We used to say that the Labour Government were dysfunctional and shambolic and that they were all at each other's throats, but we were wrong-it was much, much worse than that.

James Wharton: The Prime Minister will be aware that former Para and Teessider, Anthony Malone, has languished in an Afghan jail for more than two years and is still being held in lieu of payment of an outstanding debt. Given that his imprisonment is potentially in breach of international law, will the Prime Minister put pressure on the Afghan Government to secure Mr Malone's release?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this case, which is worrying. I can assure him and Anthony Malone's family and friends that the British embassy continues to raise this case with the Afghan authorities. The ambassador in Kabul has raised the case with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and we are in discussions at the moment with the Afghan Attorney-General about why Anthony Malone continues to be detained. If my hon. Friend keeps in touch with my office, we will keep in touch about developments in this case.

Points of Order

Jeremy Corbyn: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have made it very clear on a number of occasions that Ministers should make statements to the House first, rather than making them elsewhere. In response to a number of recent questions, the Secretary of State for Defence has refused to say what the outcome of the review of the costs of Trident is and has urged Members to wait until the statement at the end of the month. However, today's  Guardian reports that, in a speech yesterday at Chatham House, he decided, unannounced, that Trident was "pretty good value" for money, giving an indication that the review is of no consequence whatever and therefore that he has already made up his mind on this matter. Is there any way in which you can ask him to make it clear to the House whether his answers mean anything or not?

Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, but I am not sure that there is a matter for me immediately to rule on because I do not have the material in front of me. However, it does seem to me a point that he can reasonably raise with the Secretary of State for Defence, and I have a feeling that he is likely to do so sooner, rather than later.

Vernon Coaker: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I ask you, and, as he is in his place, the Leader of the House, to look into something that has come to light this morning? I have inquired at the Public Bill Office about the procedure regarding the Academies Bill next week and it appears that amendments for Committee are to be tabled after Second Reading, but as the first day of Committee is next Wednesday, amendments from Front Benchers have to be given to the Clerk at the Table of the House at 10 o'clock on Monday. They will then have to be checked in the House and if there are any technical issues, there will be a problem. This system means that if any Government, Opposition or other Back Benchers decide during Second Reading that they want to table an amendment, they would have to know that they had to do so at 10 o'clock, before the closing of the House at 10.45 pm, or whenever the business finishes. Is it not an extraordinary way of running business to say that people have to table amendments on the same day as Second Reading? That is highly unusual and will make it very difficult for us properly to hold the Government to account on this Bill.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I think I am right in saying that if there were to be a facility for amendments to be tabled before Second Reading, that would require a motion in the name of the Government. In the absence of such a motion, I think that the Chair would give sympathetic, and certainly due, consideration to starred amendments. I hope that that is all readily intelligible to the hon. Gentleman and, of course, the whole House.

Peter Bone: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not know whether you are aware that shortly before Parliament opened today, the road outside Westminster was temporarily closed by a demonstration by stop the trafficking. Is it not amazing that so many people can be so bothered and concerned about 20th-century slavery that they can actually stop the traffic outside Parliament?

Mr Speaker: It is, indeed, amazing and it also enables the hon. Gentleman, whose work on trafficking is respected across the House, to underline the importance of the campaign. That is precisely what he has done and I have a feeling that he will share the  Hansard report of his point of order with people in Wellingborough.

Edward Balls: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The issue of the five lists and the mishandling of the Building Schools for the Future announcement was raised at Prime Minister's questions. You will know that, on Sunday, I wrote to the Secretary of State for Education and copied the letter to you, to ask for a clear answer to the question of whether, a week ago, before the first list was published, the Secretary of State was advised by his departmental officials not to proceed on this course but to consult local authorities instead, because of the danger of getting the lists wrong and causing both confusion and legal challenge. I have had no reply yet from the Secretary of State. I wonder whether you think that that is in order or a gross discourtesy both to you and myself.

Mr Speaker: I do not think that there is anything disorderly at all at this stage, but if the right hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied by the absence of a reply to his letter, it is perfectly open to him to table questions to inquire when he can expect a reply. I have a feeling that that device, and possibly other parliamentary devices, will spring into the right hon. Gentleman's fertile mind.

Paul Flynn: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I thank the Prime Minister for restoring to its proper place the reading of the names of the fallen in Afghanistan? As you know, that has not happened in the past three weeks, and there was considerable unhappiness because the names were read out at other times. Can we look forward in future to the names of those who, sadly, will fall in the next few weeks being read out at a time of the maximum attendance of MPs and the maximum attention on the House from outside?

Mr Speaker: The answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is that I think that there is great merit in that proposition, which is in no sense a partisan or political one. If there is to be any change on this matter from what has happened this week or that, it is something that should usefully be discussed with the people who make these announcements. Rather than pronouncing upon that here, it would be better for me to talk to other people who are directly involved in these matters, and the upshot of any such discussion will become known to the hon. Gentleman sooner rather than later.

Laurence Robertson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We heard in Prime Minister's questions about the difficulties being experienced in Northern Ireland. May I bring it to your attention, Sir, that the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs is not yet up and running, despite the fact that I had the honour of being elected its Chairman some weeks ago? I am not making accusations, but I understand that the problem is that the Labour party has not submitted its names to the Committee of Selection. I understand that that Committee meets later today. Will you use your good offices to try to encourage the Labour party to submit its names, so that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee can begin to undertake what could be very important work?

Mr Speaker: The difficulties that the hon. Gentleman describes in respect of his Select Committee apply also to a number of others. Of course, I am in favour of the speedy constitution and operation of Select Committees; but, sadly, that matter is not in my hands. I have no power in this regard, notwithstanding the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm to ensure that I have. I hope that that is helpful, but his point will have been heard, not least by those to whom he was indirectly addressing it.

Carers (Identification and Support)

Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No.  23 )

Barbara Keeley: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require health bodies and general medical practitioners, and certain other organisations, to identify patients who are carers or who have a carer; to require identified carers to be referred to sources of help and support and to make further provision in relation to such arrangements; to make provision in relation to the responsibilities of local authorities and schools for the needs of young carers and their families; and for connected purposes.
	In April 2007, I introduced a similar Bill aimed at helping to ensure that carers and young carers were identified and referred to sources of advice and support. I am reintroducing the Bill today because, although some progress has been made, there is still much work to be done. We have a population that is living longer and living more often with dementia, illness or a long-term condition. It has become clear that more and more families are stepping in to provide full-time and high levels of care.
	The 2001 census found that 10% of all carers in the UK were caring for more than 50 hours a week. Provisional figures published last month by the NHS Information Centre show that that figure has now more than doubled to 22%. In Salford, which is the local authority that covers my Worsley and Eccles South constituency, the proportion of carers providing full-time care has been at a higher level for some time. In 2001, some 24% of Salford carers provided care for more than 50 hours a week, which was more than twice the national figure for those with the heaviest caring commitments.
	Carers play a vital role in helping with social care. They are key partners in care for the NHS, but their own health is threatened by caring. We know that full-time care can take a toll on carers' health, so the health needs of carers must be recognised. Carers who care for 50 or more hours a week are twice as likely to suffer from ill health, while those caring for a person suffering from dementia or stroke disease are even more at risk of ill health. We must act to ensure that those who care for more hours than are associated with a full-time job are identified and then supported.
	Early identification and support for carers means that they can maintain their health, and better manage and sustain their caring role. My Bill would require GPs to identify patients who are carers, or who have a carer, and to take the carers' needs into account. It would also require schools to have a policy to identify young carers.
	Some progress has been made over the past 10 years on identifying carers and referring them to support. We started with the first national carers strategy in 1999, when GPs and primary health care teams were given a five-point checklist for use with carers in their practice populations. By 2008, the Princess Royal Trust for Carers and the Royal College of General Practitioners had created a best practice guide and self-assessment toolkit called "Supporting Carers: An action guide for general practitioners and their teams". GP training pilots followed, as did awareness training modules on carers in the skills for care and skills for health programmes.
	Research shows, however, that the work done nationwide by GPs to identify carers in their practice populations is still inconsistent. Only a small proportion of the total number of carers is identified. Even those GP practices with good links to their local carers centres are not identifying all the carers whose health might be affected by caring responsibilities. A pilot programme in Devon that was featured at the recent international carers conference reported that one of the crucial factors in the sustainability of such work in primary care was having a lead GP in each practice to act as a strategic figurehead. The Princess Royal Trust Salford carers centre is working on that so that the lead GP ensures that their GP colleagues are on board and making the necessary referrals. Salford carers centre works jointly with many local practices and gives them access to the list of carers of whom the centre is aware. I have no doubt that such work in primary care has increased the registration of carers and is leading to positive outcomes. "Personal Social Services Survey of Adult Carers in England-2009-10", which was the first national user experience survey of carers, found that carers in Salford whose GP knew that they were a carer reported that they always or usually felt supported by their GP.
	The Bill also contains an important provision for schools to recognise the needs of young carers and their families. Young carers are the most hidden group of carers. Research conducted in May by the Princess Royal Trust for Carers found that only 40% of young carers said that their teachers were aware of their caring role. Figures in the last census suggested that 2% of all children in the UK were young carers, but it is difficult to obtain accurate figures because of the hidden nature of such caring, so the percentage could be much higher.
	Young people and their parents are often silent about the extent of the support that a child provides because of guilt or fear of separation. To combat that, we need to introduce measures so that schools and local authorities recognise the problems faced by young carers. It is likely that the most vulnerable young carers will continue their caring role throughout their childhood without any support. Young carers might have parents with substance misuse or alcohol problems. The extent of that problem is not fully understood, but according to the charity Turning Point, up to 1.3 million-or one in 11-children in the UK live with parents who misuse alcohol or are problem drug users. Such children might find themselves responsible for their own and their parents' safety. My Bill would place duties on social services authorities to consider what support services are needed to sustain the parenting role in such families. When a parent is assessed for community care services, support should be offered if it is found that the adult relies on the caring role of his or her child so that we ensure that the health, education and well-being of the child or young person are not impaired by such caring responsibilities.
	Young carers may have a parent with an illness or with a learning or physical disability, and the parent may rely on the care from their child. Such children miss out on their education and can find themselves misunderstood at school. When they are missing from school due to caring responsibilities they are treated as truants by teachers and often bullied by other children. My Bill would require that both schools and local authority children's services have written policies in place to support such young carers. The Princess Royal Trust for Carers is campaigning for schools to have a nominated lead on young carers' issues, and this could be implemented by the Bill.
	Many health and social care professionals are frustrated by the different thresholds for service provision for different client groups. An adult mental health worker may be aware of children affected by their parent's mental health condition, but unless the children are at risk of serious harm, the health professional will probably not be able to help them, so the general duties to young carers and their families outlined in my Bill would help. A simple joint working protocol between children's and adults' services, combined with a training programme for staff, would help with this problem.
	The measures in my Bill would ensure that health professionals identify carers and refer them to much needed help and support. My Bill is supported by Carers UK and the Princess Royal Trust for Carers. I would like to thank Carers UK and Luke Clements for helping me to draft the Bill, and Gordon Conochie of the Princess Royal Trust for Carers for his input. I would also like to thank Julia Ellis and Dawn O'Rooke from the Princess Royal Trust Salford carers centre, whose work has created an excellent example of good practice in identifying carers within primary care.
	I thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the House for giving me the opportunity to present the Bill today.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Ordered,
	That Barbara Keeley, Diana R. Johnson, Andrew Gwynne, Ann Coffey, Kate Green, Nia Griffith, Luciana Berger, Mr. David Anderson, Tony Baldry, Annette Brooke and Caroline Lucas present the Bill.
	Barbara Keeley accordingly presented the Bill.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 12 November 2010 , and to be printed (Bill 55).

Police Grant Report

Nick Herbert: I beg to move,
	That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2010-11: Amending Report 2010-11 (House of Commons Paper No. 47), which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved.
	The Government's top priority is to reduce the unprecedented budget deficit that this country faces. As a first step towards achieving that aim, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced on 24 May a £6 billion package of savings across the public sector. The Home Office share of this spending reduction is £367 million. In order to minimise the impact on the police service, the Home Office has cut a greater than proportionate share of its central budget by bearing down significantly on overheads and reducing waste, including cuts to consultancy services, marketing costs and travel. National policing organisations have been required to make significant savings too. For example, the National Policing Improvement Agency will make a saving of £40 million this year, on top of a £73 million saving already planned for this year. That is a greater proportionate cut than we are asking police forces to make.
	However, the police account for well over half of Home Office spending, so we cannot make the necessary savings at the centre alone. We need the police to contribute to the drive to efficiency. On 27 May, I announced my intention to reduce this year's core Government funding to the police by a total of £135 million. I propose that this will mostly be achieved by a £115 million reduction in rule 2 grant, for which the Government today seek the House's approval. Those proposed reductions to police funding are fair and reasonable. Every force is treated equally, with a cut equivalent to 1.46% of their core funding from central Government.

Keith Vaz: rose -

Brian Binley: rose -

Nick Herbert: I give way first to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee.

Keith Vaz: Obviously the Minister regards those reductions as fair and reasonable; others might not regard them in that light. At the end of the day, he must have received some advice from his officials, so will we have fewer police officers on the front line as a result of what the Government propose to do?

Nick Herbert: We do not believe that there need be fewer police officers as a consequence of the savings that we are asking the House to approve today, for the simple reason that, as I said, the savings amount to less than 1.5% of the core funding that forces receive from central Government. Police forces can make those savings and the front line can be protected.

Brian Binley: My right hon. Friend clearly makes the point that there will be equal cuts throughout the country, yet the previous situation meant a massive imbalance thanks to corrupt formula funding and the damping effect, which affects my county of Northamptonshire immensely unfavourably. Will he consider the matter and tell the people of Northamptonshire that he will review formula funding and remove the damping process?

Nick Herbert: I understand my hon. Friend's concern and hear the passion with which he intervenes on me. The purpose of damping was to ensure that no force received less than a minimum increase in funding each year and therefore to provide financial stability, but I appreciate the concerns about the process, not least from forces such as my hon. Friend's in Northamptonshire, which feel that they have lost out by subsidising others. It has been the intention for some time-it was the intention of the previous Government-to remove the damping mechanism, and I shall look again at those issues and the position of individual forces once we know the situation in the spending review, to which I shall come. I shall try to ensure fairness, but I should say to my hon. Friend and to right hon. and hon. Members from all parts of the House that there is no pot of gold or easy solution to the situation that all forces currently face and will face. Whatever the funding formula and the adjustments, we and every force will all have to make significant savings, and I should not pretend otherwise to my hon. Friend.

Geraint Davies: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that in constituencies such as mine, where the police are already having to make efficiencies, these further efficiencies-of £6 million throughout Wales, I think-will inevitably lead to cuts in front-line policing, and that, alongside cuts in education, which will lead to more drug abuse, and cuts in the number of public service workers, which will lead to unemployment, there will be greater pressure on the police and fewer police to sort out that pressure? Will we not see an increase in crime, as we did under the previous Conservative Government?

Nick Herbert: No. I accept no part of what the hon. Gentleman says. We are talking about in-year cuts in relation to police forces of less than 1.5% of their Government funding, and we do not believe that that will mean that police forces have to cut front-line services. We believe that forces can make efficiencies, albeit in in-year services, so we do not believe that it will impact on crime levels. Indeed, I should say that the reason we have to make these savings is this Government's inheritance from the previous Government, which left us with a budget deficit. It is our responsibility to tackle it, and if the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends have concerns about future police funding levels, they should address them to their right hon. Friends who were in charge of the country's Exchequer and finances, and who supported the misjudgments that have left us all in this position.

Stewart Jackson: Obviously we want an honest debate that is essentially focused on the evidence. Is it therefore noteworthy that on 20 April the former Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), specifically ruled out guaranteeing that police numbers would stay the same or increase? That is important for Opposition Members to take into account.

Nick Herbert: My hon. Friend is exactly right. On 20 April, in a "Daily Politics" general election debate, the right hon. Gentleman, now the shadow Home Secretary, was asked in terms whether he could guarantee that police numbers would not fall if Labour formed the next Government. He replied, "No." He could not offer any such guarantee. But more than that, we know that the Labour Government were planning-indeed, we inherited spending plans-to cut departmental budgets by £44 billion a year by 2014-15. That would have been £44 billion of unallocated spending cuts. Where did they think they were going to get that money from? What services were they going to cut? They would not tell us, but the figure implied an average real reduction for unprotected Departments of 20%. Let us be clear: where cuts have to be made to police forces, they are Labour's cuts; they are the cuts that Labour bequeathed to us because of its financial mismanagement.

Caroline Flint: What assessment has the right hon. Gentleman made of the increase in costs to the police of having elected police commissioners?

Nick Herbert: We will shortly say more about the policy of directly elected individuals. It was a manifesto commitment that we made, and that reform will be valuable in protecting front-line policing and neighbourhood policing. I shall come on to that shortly, if the right hon. Lady will forgive me.

Robert Halfon: Does the Minister accept that 50% of a police officer's time is actually spent at the police station doing paperwork, and that if we get rid of such paperwork and targets we will get more police out on the street and therefore save the taxpayer money?

Nick Herbert: I strongly agree. There would be little point in recruiting additional police officers-if we had the budget to do so, and we do not-if they did not spend their time out on the beat, delivering the visible and available policing that the public want. One paradox of the past 10 years is that, in spite of a substantial increase in police officer recruitment, the public still feel that the police are not sufficiently visible or available.

Gareth Thomas: What discussions has the Minister had with Boris Johnson about the impact of these cuts in London? I ask in the context of the Mayor having already decided to cut 455 police officers, and refusing to guarantee the long-term future of safer neighbourhood teams in each London borough.

Nick Herbert: I have discussed these matters with the deputy Mayor who has responsibility for policing. I shall discuss them with the Mayor, and I have had a number of discussions, as has my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. They do not believe that the budget cuts, which the House will vote on today, amounting to-I repeat-less than 1.5% of what the Government provide to forces, require them to reduce the number of officers in the force. However, we will take no lessons about cutting police numbers from Opposition Members, as they clearly would not guarantee force levels and left this Government with the responsibility of managing the public finances properly.

Neil Parish: When my local police make an arrest, it takes them seven hours to complete the paperwork. There are great savings to be made in police time, and some of that work can surely be passed to civilians. There are savings to be made, but we can still keep front-line police on the beat.

Nick Herbert: I agree. Of course there are savings to be made through more efficient working practices. We are determined to try to drive down bureaucracy in order to free up more police time, and there will be better management of police officers' time. For instance, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner pointed out this week that he had increased the availability and visibility of the police by requiring officers to patrol individually rather than in pairs.

Mark Tami: The right hon. Gentleman talked about manifesto pledges. What does he say about the manifesto pledge of his coalition partners, who promised us 3,000 extra police?

Nick Herbert: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have a coalition agreement that has superseded manifesto pledges. The truth is that no Government would now be in a position to increase police numbers because of the fiscal inheritance bequeathed to us by Labour.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Nick Herbert: I am going to make some more progress, if my hon. Friends and others will forgive me.
	I made this announcement at the earliest opportunity to enable forces to plan ways of managing reductions that will not impact on the front line of policing. I am aware that forces will have slightly less money this year than they expected, but this is still £124 million more grant funding than was received last year. Let me repeat: even after this reduction in grant, police forces will still have more cash this year than they did last year, and Government funding for the police in this financial year will be £9.6 billion. To put the grant reduction further in context, it represents, for every force, less than 1% of their expected spend this year.
	It is for chief constables to use their expertise to decide what savings make most sense for their force, but I am quite clear that these can be achieved by driving out wasteful spending on support functions, reducing bureaucracy and increasing efficiency in key functions, leaving the front line of policing strong and secure. We expect forces to be held to this by their police authorities and by Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary, ensuring that they are delivering the most effective service possible.

Claire Perry: rose -

Philip Davies: rose -

Nick Herbert: I give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) and then to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies).

Claire Perry: It will not be comfortable to stand up and defend the reduction of almost £1 million in the police grant for Wiltshire. However, we can see that this process offers enormous opportunities to improve efficiency. I am sure that my right hon. Friend agrees, for example, that police forces waste about £400 million a year by not procuring together. We have 43 police forces which all buy their own uniforms, all in the same shade of blue, thanks to the fact that Labour Members taught them that money was a free commodity. Police forces waste about £17,000 a day on renting cars because they procure them separately. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there are enormous efficiency opportunities, the value of which could be about £10 million for each police force in the country?

Nick Herbert: rose-

Mr Speaker: Order. Before the Minister responds, may I say, first, that I hope the hon. Lady will now have an opportunity to breathe, which would be a very healthy thing; and secondly, that I encourage Members who intervene to bear in mind that the total duration of the debate is three hours?

Nick Herbert: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. Of course there are greater opportunities for the 43 forces to share services and to procure collectively. I will say more about that later, if she will forgive me.
	I promised, perhaps unwisely, to give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley.

Philip Davies: I agree with everything that the Minister has said so far: nothing that he is announcing today will in itself cause a problem to the police. My concern is not what he is saying but things said by other Ministers that will drive up pressures on the police. For example, the Secretary of State for Justice has decided not to send persistent offenders to prison but to let them out into the community, and to stop the police using CCTV and DNA to their full capacity. Does my right hon. Friend accept that these things are putting upward pressures on the police that are not consistent with what he is announcing?

Nick Herbert: I knew that it was a mistake to give way to my hon. Friend. He must not inadvertently misrepresent what my right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary said about the use of imprisonment. We have said that we must do more to reduce reoffending. Reoffending rates, particularly in relation to short-term prison sentences, are far too high. We must break the cycle of crime. That means doing far more, innovatively, to ensure that offenders can be supervised and supported using "payment by results" models. I am sure that when my hon. Friend investigates that more closely, he will welcome the radicalism in what we are saying.
	The Government will play their part in helping to protect the front line by reducing the burden of bureaucracy on forces, which several of my hon. Friends have mentioned. The Home Secretary has already announced that we will scrap the central targets, overt and back-door, that have bedevilled policing, and we are reviewing the nature of force inspection with the same aim. Labour's 10-point policing pledge will go. The previous Government spent £6 million of taxpayers' money on promoting that pledge, including on totally misleading advertisements that claimed that 80% of police time would be spent on the beat-adverts that were censured by the Advertising Standards Authority. We know what that pledge was about-propaganda and spin. That discredited Government have gone, and so has their approach.
	In place of the centralised, bureaucratic accountability of the past decade, which undermined professionalism and added cost, we will introduce local democratic accountability. The introduction of directly elected individuals in 2012, together with a new focus on outcomes rather than processes, will not only strengthen the links between the police and public but unshackle police forces from Whitehall's tick-box tyranny. We want the police to be crime fighters, not form writers. We want forces to work for local people, not for Whitehall officials or Westminster politicians.

Geraint Davies: As regards the democratic election of these police officers, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a danger, first, that they will no longer engage with the wider democracy of MPs, Assembly Members, councillors and so on; and secondly, that they will be hijacked by a small group about a niche issue and ignore some of the important things that the police do, such as counter-terrorism?

Nick Herbert: No, I do not believe that either of those two things is a risk. In relation to London, for instance, we now have policing arrangements that Members of Parliament in London find it perfectly possible to engage with, and we have a system whereby those who are responsible for supervising policing still attend to the functions of policing that reach beyond the local. It is perfectly possible to institute a more democratic arrangement that addresses that requirement. The important point is that there is an exchange in this regard. If we want to reduce the amount of central direction on policing and free the police to take more decisions for themselves and to have the ability to manage their forces and address local issues, then the police must answer to someone, and that is why we propose to enhance local accountability.

Henry Smith: Unlike the deficit deniers, the Minister has pointed out that there is no golden pot of money. Can he confirm that the previous Government wasted £500 million on the idea of forced police mergers, and that there is a far more efficient way of providing the democratic accountability that our police service needs and directing the money to the front-line policing that we need?

Nick Herbert: I agree with my hon. Friend, who had experience of the problem of force mergers as leader of West Sussex county council, where such a merger was strongly resisted. Huge sums of money were wasted by the previous Government on attempting, and failing, to drive that policy through. That is not a course that this Government will pursue.

Mark Tami: rose -

Gareth Thomas: rose -

Nick Herbert: I am going to make a little more progress.
	Of course, the challenge of tackling the deficit does not end this year; as we go forward, it will be vital for the police to deliver better value for money. The Government's spending review will report in October, and we will not know until then what future police funding will look like. However, the Chancellor made it clear that unprotected Departments, including the Home Office, will face spending reductions, implying an average real cut of around 25% over the next four years. Whatever the outcome of the spending review, value for money considerations will become a new imperative for police authorities and forces.
	We have been working constructively with the Association of Chief Police Officers to discuss how forces can meet the considerable challenge of reducing spending on this scale. Our joint ambition is to do everything possible to protect front-line services. We appreciate the importance of police functions that the public do not always see. Those can still be front-line services, but as I have repeated to chief constables, the people's priority is to maintain visible and available policing, and that is what we must all strive to protect.

Ian Lavery: The Northumbria police force is expected to make in-year cuts in the region of £3.5 million this year, which causes great concern to people in my constituency. We all experienced the massive manhunt in Northumberland only last week, which ended on Saturday morning. It has cost Northumbria police something in the region of £3 million, making a double whammy of about £6.5 million. Does the Minister agree that that is unsustainable, and will he review the initial £3.5 million cut?

Nick Herbert: I do not think it would be appropriate to review the spending reduction that we are asking every force to make on an equitable basis, which we announced some weeks ago subject to the approval of the House. However, there are special arrangements that can apply in relation to unforeseen expenditure by police forces. Northumbria police and its authority are well aware of that, and we will happily discuss the matter with them.
	The Government's view is that more can be done to achieve greater value for money in policing through national procurement, as my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes suggested, and through sharing services, outsourcing and working more efficiently. If 43 forces can buy equipment more cheaply together, we can no longer allow anything to stand in the way of that. If tasks can be performed just as well or better by civilian staff, and so reduce costs and release sworn officers for other duties, ideology should not stand in the way. If some forces can use modern systems to improve business processes, so can others, and if some forces can show that collaborating with each other or with other local agencies delivers savings, others can take the same path. We need to see new solutions, innovation and strong local leadership. The first resort must be to drive out cost and the last resort must be reductions in police numbers.

David Hanson: Has the right hon. Gentleman read the White Paper that we produced last December, which appears to be basically what he is reading out to the House today?

Nick Herbert: Yes, I have had the misfortune to read all the previous Government's documents. The problem is that despite the suggestion that greater savings could be achieved, for instance through collaboration, it has not always happened. Today we find ourselves in a different environment in which forces and authorities face a new imperative to find those savings. The Government are willing to ensure that those savings will be made, in return for greater local accountability.
	The quid pro quo for returning power and enabling far greater local decision making is that we will be tougher about driving savings through central procurement, and about collaboration between forces where it is clear that there is a policing need-for instance in relation to serious crime that crosses force borders-or that by working together, forces can achieve better value for money. We do not support the compulsory merger of forces, as I reaffirmed to my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Henry Smith), but a great deal more can and must be done through enhanced collaboration.
	The Government have also already announced a full review of remuneration and conditions of service for police officers and staff. We want to ensure that pay and conditions support the delivery of an excellent service and provide value for money, so that they are right for both those who work in the service and the public. Spending on the work force accounts for about 80% of police expenditure. It is therefore right to examine carefully arrangements such as the use of overtime. We will provide more information about the review, including its timing, shortly, but we will expect it to report by January next year.

Gareth Thomas: Will the Minister give way?

Nick Herbert: No, I am going to draw to a conclusion now, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. I know that many Members wish to speak.
	This Government inherited a £155 million budget deficit, one of the worst in Europe and the largest in our peacetime history. This country cannot sustain a situation in which, without action, in five years' time we will be spending over three times more on debt interest alone than on the entire criminal justice system. Achieving savings will mean driving value for money and delivering more for less. The criminal justice system, including policing, is no more immune from those imperatives than any other public service.
	It is our responsibility to tackle the deficit, restore the health of the public finances and ensure that we are able to fund high-quality public services in the years ahead. We have not ducked that responsibility. It means taking tough decisions but the right decisions, and it means showing leadership. Chief constables and police authorities must show leadership, too, in demanding the savings that we can all make. For those reasons, I commend the proposal to the House.

David Hanson: I welcome the Minister to his position. He will know that it is an excellent job to have, and it is one that I certainly enjoyed in government. He has great support in the Home Office from a fine team of officials and staff in doing that job.
	Having got the niceties out of the way, I come to the crunch. I am disappointed and unhappy about the approach that the Minister has taken to the in-year funding cuts for allocations to police authorities in England and Wales for 2010-11. There are a number of new Members in their places, and I do not think that they will realise that this debate was held, done and dusted, in the House in February. We had a debate then on the 2010-11 police grant. I stood at the Government Dispatch Box when we debated the third year of a settlement for the police in England and Wales. We had already announced the three-year settlement two years before, and the House was to confirm the third year on 3 February.
	At that time, I challenged the Liberal Democrat spokesman, who sat where my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) is sitting today, and the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), who was sitting where I am now. I asked whether, if they were in government in any way, shape or form-much to my surprise, the Liberals have found themselves in that position-they would reduce or change this year's grant. The answer was that they would not. In fact, the Liberal Democrats called for more spending on the police-a point that I shall return to later. Our proposals for the third year of the agreed settlement were supported by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats in opposition but are now opposed and torn up by them in government.
	One of the most distressing aspects of the debate is the fact that the third-year settlement has been agreed, is known and has been put to police authorities across England and Wales. Police authorities went into their precept-setting meetings in February, March and April based on that grant and on what they expected their income from Government to be for 2010-11.

Stewart Jackson: The right hon. Gentleman is moving to the crux of the issue, despite his engaging and emollient beginning. We would take his protestations slightly more seriously if his own Government had brought forward a comprehensive spending review last autumn, and specifically if the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) had ruled out cuts in police numbers during the election campaign. Neither happened, so we have to take the right hon. Gentleman's protestations with a pinch of salt.

David Hanson: I look forward to the hon. Gentleman voting today to reduce Cambridgeshire's policing grant by £1.2 million. That is what he will be doing. He needs to go back to Cambridgeshire and explain to the residents of Peterborough why he is voting to reduce the budget by £1.2 million this year. I and my 257 colleagues on the Labour Benches stood on a manifesto commitment to ensure that policing resources were maintained after the general election. We won our seats on that basis, and we are being consistent in putting forward our arguments today. The hon. Gentleman is voting to remove money from his police force.

Henry Smith: Is it not the case that only after the election, when we opened the books, did we realise just how bad the deficit was and that the former Chief Secretary had helpfully left his note on the desk for the incoming Chief Secretary?

David Hanson: I look forward to the hon. Gentleman going back to Crawley and telling the people how he voted today to remove £2.4 million from West Sussex police's budget. I look forward to him explaining that, and I am sure that he is looking forward to that discussion.

Claire Perry: I have already started to explain to many of my constituents, who have of course been writing and e-mailing, why we have to reduce the police support grant. Most people understand that there is no money, thanks to the Labour party's disastrous economic policy. Labour Members have been unspecific about where they would cut. This is the sort of ideology that led to the former Cabinet's conclusion that the Labour Government were "finished", "futile" and-finally in opposition. People are looking for an engaged and informed discussion about what we can do to get the deficit under control.

David Hanson: I look forward to the people of Devizes learning that the hon. Lady has voted for £1 million to be cut from their police grant-unless my speech convinces her to vote with Labour Members to oppose those cuts. She asked an important question about what the Labour party would do to reduce the deficit. We went into the election campaign with clear commitments. Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Labour Members did not oppose the settlement that we debated on 3 February; we agreed the grants for this year in February. For future years, we agreed that we would spend money above the rate of inflation on policing, health and education, and make the savings that we needed through a deficit reduction plan for other matters.

Gareth Thomas: Does my right hon. Friend remember his visit to Harrow police station in January to hear from yet another borough commander about the need for a new police station to help Harrow police do the job that they need to do? Does he share my disappointment that the cuts will reduce the capital available to the Metropolitan police, and are probably yet another excuse for the Mayor of London to continue to refuse to help Harrow police get the equipment and facilities that they need to do their job?

David Hanson: Today's cuts not only reduce the capital budget but take some £28 million from London's budget. I believe that the Mayor is still one Boris Johnson, who has already agreed not to raise the precept this year. That means a real cut not only, through inflation, on the precept, but in the grant.

Mark Tami: rose-

David Hanson: I will happily give way to my constituency neighbour before trying to make progress.

Mark Tami: Does my right hon. Friend agree that suggesting that today's cuts and the huge cuts to come can be achieved by getting rid of backroom staff who apparently do nothing is a cruel deception of the British people? There will be more pressure on front-line police to do the jobs that civilian staff currently undertake.

David Hanson: My hon. Friend is right. Not only that, but he knows that some 80% to 85% of all policing costs are for police officers and staffing. Today's reduction, and potential future reductions, will hit staff hard.
	Police forces have set their precepts on the basis of the grant agreed in February, so they will now find it difficult to fulfil their strategic commitments this year. Cutting services and police numbers ultimately cuts the ability to reduce crime. I am particularly disappointed, given that Members called for support for the police during their election campaigns, that members of the coalition will go back on their commitments and vote through this unfair cut today.
	I pay tribute to the police's excellent work. They work under extreme pressures, risking their safety to keep us safe. Often, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck said, they have to deal with severe emergencies. We want to ensure that we give-as we did in government-the police the powers and resources to get on with their job. As a result of investment under the Labour Government, there were record numbers of police on our streets-17,000 more police officers than when we came to power in 1997-cutting crime and making our communities safer. We have some 16,000 police community support officers-positions that did not exist when the Labour Government came to power-engaged with communities and helping reduce crime. Consequently, crime fell by 36%. In the past year alone, car crime, robbery and burglary were down. Even in a recession, firearm offences decreased by 17%, robbery was down 5%, and overall crime reduced by 5% last year. The chances of being a victim were the lowest since records began. Confidence in policing was nearly 60% and rose over the year. Labour Members fought the election on a manifesto commitment to give the police the resources to maintain that record, to ensure that they had funding and to continue that investment for the next three years.
	The Minister's points about efficiencies did not escape the Labour Government. There were real concerns about how to get best value for the Government's police funding. That is why I referred to the White Paper that we produced last December, which examined cutting police overtime by some £500 million; ensuring support for merging back-office functions properly and effectively, and supporting the voluntary merger of forces. We got burned by the forced merger but wanted to ensure that voluntary mergers went ahead. We accordingly supported voluntary mergers of forces. I allocated £500,000 to Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire to consider how to develop such a merger in due course. I note that the Minister for Housing, the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), opposes such a merger. So much for concerted activity on backroom costs.
	We considered national procurement, which the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) mentioned. I initiated national procurement proposals for the next few years for uniforms, vehicle support and air support. We considered removing resources and saving around £1 billion from that budget while maintaining the provision of more money to support forces' crime-fighting activities.

Caroline Flint: On force mergers, does my right hon. Friend agree that it was a question not only of saving money, but of operational efficiency? We have too many police forces that do not have the capacity to deal with serious organised crime. We face that threat alongside what happens in our neighbourhoods and on our streets. The cut in grant will have an even greater impact on that work, but we must also consider structures that inhibit effective policing on such serious matters.

David Hanson: My right hon. Friend is right. She knows that serious organised crime often requires a cross-border, regional approach. Crime in my area of north Wales is, sadly, often generated from Manchester and Liverpool, and the forces need to co-operate-and they do-to tackle those problems. Regional co-operation is particularly important for tackling terrorism, and it will be hit not only by spending cuts this year, but by the potential for cuts in future years.

George Freeman: The right hon. Gentleman said that in the 13 years for which his party was in government, it took waste seriously. Why, therefore, at the end of that time, did we still have separate procurement, the cost of which the Home Office estimates to be more than £400 million a year?

David Hanson: Again, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the White Paper. We considered a range of things in the 13 years. In the year that I was police Minister, from last July, I initiated procurement proposals on uniforms, vehicles, air support and other matters. Procurement is one of the subjects about which we are very concerned. There are savings to be made on it; that is a matter of common agreement.

George Freeman: You had 13 years.

David Hanson: I am trying to be helpful to the hon. Gentleman. I agree with him that there are savings to be made on, for example, uniforms, vehicles and air support. We were trying to do that, and I will fully support the Minister's attempts to get those contracts. However, that does not detract from the fact that the core grant for this year, which we agreed in February-without a vote, with Conservative and Liberal Democrat support-is being cut today. And we face further cuts down the line because of cuts in the Home Office grant.

Stewart Jackson: The right hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. He was candid earlier when he said that the Labour Government were burned over the mergers. They were burned because there was no consultation and a top-down approach was forced on individual forces. Ten, eight or six years ago, the previous Government could have given police forces a fiscal incentive to share back-office functions, procurement, equipment and so on, but they failed to do that. That is a fair point to make to inform today's debate on budget reductions.

David Hanson: Let us revert to the subject before us. I think that there is scope for mergers of police forces. As a Minister, I encouraged the provision of a grant of £500,000 to help move that process on. I agree with the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) that we were burned by forced mergers. I wish the Minister a fair wind if he can continue to encourage forces that, with local support, want to merge. Mergers should not be forced from the centre, but agreed locally. Let us not disagree about that.
	Labour supported mergers and procurement measures when in government, and I support the Minister for Police on them in opposition. The key is that we still require resources to undertake policing. This year, resources are being cut in-year, despite an agreed settlement; the 25% that might be cut in future years will also be damaging. That will have a serious impact on crime generally. I do not very often agree with the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), as I am sure the Minister does not, but he knew what he was talking about on DNA, CCTV, appropriate prison sentences, reducing reoffending and investment in police. He is right on those issues, and the Conservative party will be proved wrong.
	All MPs value the increases in police officers in their constituencies in the past 13 years. Today's cut could result the loss of about 4,100 officers from our streets this year alone, according, I should tell the Minister, to House of Commons Library figures.

Claire Perry: On that specific point, as I read the Labour party manifesto, the right hon. Gentleman was planning 20% cuts in non-ring-fenced Departments. Did the Home Office calculate what his cuts would mean in terms of a reduction in police numbers?

David Hanson: The hon. Lady should do her homework. The Home Office was one of the Departments that we ring-fenced in the manifesto, and we ring-fenced policing.

Claire Perry: indicated  dissent .

David Hanson: With due respect to the hon. Lady, I think I know the Labour party manifesto better than she, so we can stick with that for the moment.
	Today's reduction means a £3.5 million cut for Northumbria police, which will interest my hon. Friends the Members for Wansbeck, for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) and for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott); a £28 million cut for London; a £3 million cut for Lancashire; and a £5 million cut for West Yorkshire, to name but four police areas. This year will be really difficult.
	The Home Secretary, who is no longer in the Chamber, will today vote for a £4.3 million cut for Thames Valley police, and the Prime Minister will vote for a £3.4 million cut for his local force. When he visited west Yorkshire during the general election, he assured residents that the Conservatives were committed to PCSOs and police funding, but he will today vote to make a £4.8 million less available there this year. The Police Minister will today vote to reduce the amount for his force, Sussex police, by £2.4 million, after the previous Labour Government increased the number of officers by more than 100 in their 13 years in power. Those are real issues.
	In January, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), now a Minister of State at the Department of Energy and Climate Change, wrote to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) to complain that the funding in the February settlement was not enough for Sussex forces, but today he will vote to cut £2.4 million from the budget. Let us get some facts straight. The Conservatives should support the grant that they agreed in February and should see it through for the police officers and police forces that knew it had been agreed in the third year of a three-year settlement. They should have seen it through before the precepts were set, so that people knew what their funding would be.

Graham Stuart: The right hon. Gentleman said that it is important to get the facts straight. I have not seen the letter sent by the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden. Did he ask for a fair share of the funding provided to police forces for Sussex, or did he in fact make the point that Sussex's needs were not properly recognised compared with other areas? If the latter is the case, will the former Minister apologise for suggesting that my hon. Friend merely called for extra money? Perhaps he did so, but will the right hon. Gentleman spell out precisely what was in that letter?

David Hanson: The Energy and Climate Change Minister wrote to complain about the level of cash that the grant had given to Sussex police authority, but he will today vote for a £2.4 million cut. Indeed, the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) will today vote for a £1.8 million cut for Humberside police. I presume that the people of Humberside look forward to that.
	I have thrown a lot at the Conservative part of the coalition, but I have saved my ire for the Liberal Democrats. In the debate in February, the Liberal Democrats did not vote against the order before the House, but called for more resources. I asked the then Member for Chesterfield how much more he thought we should give to police this year. Sadly-it is always sad when someone loses their seat, but I am always glad for people who win one-he was replaced by my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) at the election. The hon. Gentleman answered by saying:
	"The Liberal Democrats have clearly said that we would divert money by abandoning particular...programmes-identity cards have been a long-standing option."-[ Official Report, 3 February 2010; Vol. 505, c. 340.]
	He said that the number of extra police resulting from abandoning identity cards would be "about 3,000". As I recall, the process of abandoning ID cards is coming to an end, so those savings can now be made. I look forward to the Liberal Democrats therefore voting not to cut resources from forces in England in Wales, and to them using their influence so that the money saved from ID cards can be used to save the resources that will be cut today.

Tom Brake: rose -

David Hanson: I will happily give way to the hon. Gentleman. Will he say how, when he goes back to his constituency in London, he will explain the £28 million that he is to take off the Greater London authority this year, in-year, when his former hon. Friend argued for 3,000 extra police officers in the debate in February?

Tom Brake: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm whether during the February debate he drew to the House's attention the fact that the Government were understating the structural deficit to the tune of £12 billion? I cannot recall him saying that.

David Hanson: The hon. Gentleman knows that Labour had a structural deficit reduction plan that involved looking at deficits and tax increases next year, which would have made a difference. We would also have looked at cuts in certain areas of expenditure, but police funding was not one of them.
	In the light of the abandonment of ID cards, will the Liberal Democrats vote for the £28 million cut in London and the cuts in other forces this year, and against a measure that they supported earlier in the year? The Deputy Prime Minister campaigned for more funding and officers during the general election, but today he will vote to cut £2.8 million from South Yorkshire's budget. During a televised election debate on crime on 20 April, the Energy and Climate Change Secretary, who was the Liberal Democrats home affairs spokesman, said that there would be no reduction in police numbers under a Lib Dem Government. He probably never expected to find himself in a Lib Dem Government, but sadly he has got one, and he will go through the Lobby today to take that money off his own force in Hampshire.
	On her website, the Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), said:
	"A Liberal Democrat Government would recruit 10,000 extra police."
	I look forward to her walking through the Lobby today to cut £28 million from London police. The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) said that
	"Withington Liberal Democrats are launching a petition to stop any further cuts in Police numbers".
	I look forward to signing that petition and to the hon. Gentleman walking through the Lobby today to cut money from Greater Manchester police.

George Freeman: While the right hon. Gentleman is on the subject of misleading election promises, does he agree that there has been a major change in the fiscal reality with which the Government must now deal, as indicated when, after the election, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, left a note in his Department to say that there is no money left? If he had said that before the election, we might have had a rather more honest election.

David Hanson: I cannot be any clearer than to tell the hon. Gentleman that we would have implemented our deficit reduction plan and that police funding was ring-fenced.
	Before I leave the subject of the Liberal Democrats, may I tell the House what the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) said on ID cards? In March 2009, he said
	"West Yorkshire Police Force could get an extra 362 officers if the government scrapped its plans for ID cards and use the money to recruit new front-line officers."
	I look forward to him walking through the Lobby to remove money from West Yorkshire police today.
	Chief Constable Peter Fahy of Greater Manchester police was quoted saying recently:
	"We've got the lowest crime in Manchester for ten years, the lowest gun crime for eight years. We are really determined as a force to make sure we maintain that record".
	However, he added:
	"Eighty-six per cent of my budget is spent on people and if we want to make significant savings in policing there is only one way of doing it-which is to reduce the size of the workforce.... It is having a big impact on the morale in the force and the way it is affecting people."
	The chair of Durham police authority has said:
	"If you are looking at cuts of this nature so quickly, clearly it will affect jobs".
	Devon and Cornwall police authority has said that these in-year cuts will result in the loss of at least 180 officers.
	The cuts undermine the relationship between the Government and the 43 police forces that have already set their precepts. In my constituency in north Wales, we are set to lose £1.1 million this year, putting a real strain on the services provided. I met with the chief constable last week and I know that not only is his force worried about the £1.1 million cut, but it is bracing itself for far worse to come.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), who is no longer in his place, mentioned the cut to the capital grant of £10 million. The cut of £10 million from the counter-terrorism budget is also of concern.

Mary Glindon: Does my right hon. Friend agree that North Tyneside was fortunate to have its new police headquarters completed under the Labour Government? It is due to open in September. Does he agree that the 27% crime reduction that the people of North Tyneside enjoyed last year will not be improved on if these cuts are implemented?

David Hanson: My hon. Friend makes an important point, because there is a link between the investment by the Labour Government and the fall in crime. Whatever assessment we make, that investment in police officers on the streets and in other areas, including capital build on new police stations, has had a direct impact in reducing levels of crime- [ Interruption. ] The Minister is chuntering from a sedentary position to the effect that police buildings do not contribute to crime reduction. A brand new police centre in Newcastle will help to put together some essential savings and help the police to organise effectively to fight crime- [ Interruption. ] We could go on all day, but my contention is that the resources that the Labour Government put in-and had agreed to put in this year-made a real difference.

Mark Tami: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, at a time when we face massive cuts and with more to come, it is bizarre that the Government intend to introduce these directly elected characters, who will end up costing a fortune but do nothing for front-line policing?

David Hanson: I concur with my hon. Friend. I have not met a single member of the police family who wants directly elected police commissioners. I look forward to having that argument with the Minister when the time comes.
	The cuts to the police grant this year, coupled with the potential cuts of up to 25% to the police grant next year, will be really damaging to our crime-fighting capability. Coupled with the scrapping of the national policing pledge and the sustained attack on community policing that is coming, I do not believe that we will be able to sustain the fall in crime that we have seen to date. I hope that I am wrong about that, but I believe that these cuts will be damaging in the long term.
	This year's grant was approved by the House of Commons and should be reaffirmed-

Nick Herbert: The right hon. Gentleman mentions the policing pledge, which this Government have rightly scrapped. How many police officers could have been funded by the £6 million advertising spend by his Government on promoting that pledge?

David Hanson: Unlike the Minister, I believe that it is important that people know their rights, know what services they can receive, know that the police are on their side, know who to contact in the police, know where their local police officers are situated and know who their local police officer is. I have always believed that the police are a public service. That spending was about ensuring that the public knew those things, so that the public and the police could work in co-operation to reduce crime.
	This settlement is wrong and will be damaging-

Heather Wheeler: rose -

David Hanson: I was going to finish speaking, but I cannot resist the hon. Lady.

Heather Wheeler: I am fascinated by the right hon. Gentleman's latest statement. Surely to goodness we were meant to be seeing the police on the street and going to their police stations. Why on earth did we need £6 million of advertising when £5 million a year was taken from Derbyshire police? If we had had that £5 million, we would have seen the police.

David Hanson: I look forward to the hon. Lady voting to remove £1.6 million from her police force later. She argues that Derbyshire is underfunded by £5 million, but she is happy to vote through a £1.6 million in-year cut- [ Interruption. ] That is up to her, but I am sure that the Labour party in her constituency will make that fact known to the residents of the area.
	This settlement is wrong and should be opposed. The original settlement was agreed in February, when it was supported by the Liberal Democrats. The House should agree it again today. I will vote against the motion and urge my right hon. and hon. Friends to join me in the Lobby.

Tom Brake: I shall start with the one point of agreement I have with the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), and that is the excellent work that the police do. He is right that we last debated this matter five months ago, and there is a sense of déjà vu about this. However, what has changed-I regret that he and his colleagues have not recognised it-is that we now know, for example, about the £12 billion structural deficit underestimate by the previous Government. He may also have noticed what has happened in other countries such as Greece in recent months, which has given an added urgency to what the coalition Government have had to do.
	I can certainly confirm that five months ago I did not expect to be standing here today defending the proposals we have before us. However, as my right hon. Friend the Minister said, it is the previous Government's economic scorched-earth policy that leaves us with no alternative. My hon. Friends know that some challenging efficiency savings will have to be made, and we will need a degree of prioritisation that has perhaps not had to happen before. It is right to berate the Opposition for their failure to acknowledge even a modicum of responsibility for the current financial difficulties that we are trying to address. However, it would be wrong not to acknowledge the increase in police numbers in recent years. The safer neighbourhood teams were positive developments, and the trend has been towards a reduction in crime, although we can argue about the statistics and the measures used to calculate that.
	Efficiency savings, especially as used as euphemism for withdrawing valuable services, are never popular, but we are in a stronger position to take those measures now with the downward trend in crime than we might have been if the trend had been upwards. I am sure that the Minister, when he was preparing for this debate, will have looked at the report of February's debate. Several points were raised then that I hope can now be clarified. For example, what is happening to recruitment across forces-an issue that Paul Holmes, who is no longer the Member of Parliament for Chesterfield, raised? In the autumn, we have the comprehensive spending review and I am sure that the Minister will argue the case for the police service strongly. Can he provide any more information about how he will push the case for police funding in those discussions?
	In February, the issue of special grant funded allocations was also raised and the concern expressed that while the core budget might be maintained-although we now know that unfortunately that is not the case-their removal might have a greater effect on the number of police officers and of PCSOs. Perhaps the Minister could comment on that point.
	On flexibility of funding, I am signed up to the agenda of greater localism and giving local authorities greater powers to deliver services. However, I am a little perplexed about why we are pushing that agenda in relation to a freeze in council tax, which goes against the proposition that local authorities should be able to take more decisions. I appreciate that at this particular time when everyone is struggling financially, we need to promote that, but I wonder whether in the future-particularly when MORI polls, which were mentioned in the February debate, have confirmed that in certain circumstances people are willing to pay a little more through their precept if they can see that additional police services are delivered-we will have the flexibility to allow that to happen.
	Another important matter raised in the February debate was linking police funding to the census, and how responsive it was to it. It has been announced that the census will not happen, so I hope that the Minister will provide some clarity about what funding will be linked to. That would give us a greater degree of confidence that, under the coalition Government, we will in future be able to reflect an increase in population more promptly in the funding that flows through not just to the police, but to other services as well.
	Finally, it is clear that in times of adversity there is more ingenuity around. I suspect that Members on both sides of the House might have received suggestions from people about how efficiency savings could be identified. Force mergers have been discussed. A constituent contacted me to suggest that we need a London police force and that there might be scope for incorporating the City of London police into the rest of the Metropolitan Police Service. Another constituent made suggestions about the way in which detectives are rotated. There are ways and means of ensuring that efficiency savings are achieved without having an impact on front-line services.

Stephen McCabe: Before the hon. Gentleman concludes, can he help me to understand how it is in these straitened times that the Conservative manifesto commitment to increasing the cost of the elected commissioner experiment persists, while the Lib Dem manifesto commitments have been dropped? How did that come about, or is it that the hon. Gentleman did not have any influence? Is he at all worried that Lib Dem broken promises are going to create a broken Britain?

Tom Brake: I will leave it to the hon. Gentleman to promote the idea through his literature that the Liberal Democrats have broken their promises. If he looked at the coalition programme, he would find that, in practice-there is no secret about this-some proposals that we wanted to promote as a party before the general election are not included in it, while some proposals that the Conservative party wanted to promote when it was in opposition are equally not in it either.

Stephen McCabe: indicated  dissent .

Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman is obviously struggling to come to terms with the concept of a coalition and what it means in practice. I am afraid he will just have to get used to the fact that these things happen.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: On that precise point, does the hon. Gentleman accept that the Deputy Prime Minister came to my constituency to launch the Liberal Democrat plan for more police officers by getting rid of ID cards, and that although we now have no ID cards, we not only have no additional police officers in Durham, but face substantial cuts to them?

Tom Brake: All I can do is go over the same response that I gave earlier. First, I am very pleased that we have started the process of getting rid of ID cards so quickly. Secondly, I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister would have said something different if the hon. Lady's Front-Bench team had provided greater clarity on where we stood as a nation in terms of our finances. I am afraid that the only example of clarity we have had is the single-sentence letter on there being "no money". That was a good example of a very honest Minister making it clear where the new Government stood and what problems they would have to tackle.
	To return to detective rotation, about which a constituent contacted me, it may be a good example of how more money could be saved in the service. As I understand it, detectives are often rotated a matter of months before retirement. They then have to undergo a new raft of training for a new role before-literally, just a few months later-retiring. That does not seem a very sensible investment. Perhaps it could be looked at to ensure that detectives are allowed to continue in their present posts so that the police service does not incur those training costs for a role that they will not carry out beyond a couple of months after starting it.
	No reduction in funding is ever going to be welcomed. I believe, however, that the scale of efficiency savings being proposed is manageable and that it is possible for our police forces to deliver both value for money and security on our streets at the same time.

Caroline Flint: I want to clarify something about the deficit from the outset. Labour Members clearly recognise that something had to be done about the deficit, which is why we set out plans to halve it over four years and looked at other areas to see where we could increase growth. What we have here is a Government-a Liberal Democrat-Conservative Government-deciding to cut the deficit harder and faster. That is a choice that the Government have made. In doing so, they are choosing dramatically to take out of the public finances investment that could contribute in some ways to our growth. By taking that money away-whether from local authorities, the police or other agencies-as they have chosen to do, they put us at a greater risk, as many people are now saying, of a double-dip recession. They are also relying on a 40% increase in exports to make up the difference as a contribution to growth. That is the dividing line here. Perhaps the reason why the Liberal Democrat-Tory coalition wants to cut so hard and so fast is that down the road in five years' time there will be a general election and they want to be able to offer tax cuts to gain re-election. That is really what is going on here.

Dan Rogerson: I am interested in the right hon. Lady's case. What she is effectively saying is that a future Labour Government would have introduced cuts, but not quite yet. Then she criticises the way in which this Government have chosen to tackle the debt. What she is saying is not that her Government would never make cuts, but that they would not make them yet. As we got closer to a general election, her Government would have done the same thing. What she says is absolute nonsense.

Caroline Flint: I direct the hon. Gentleman to the £2.6 million of cuts that his area is going to face. There are choices to be made. We said that we would cut the deficit by half over four years, but your Government are suggesting that we go faster and harder, posing the risk of going back into recession, putting more people out of work and affecting employment in both the public and private sector. We will watch very carefully to see whether the outcomes that you have chosen to pursue are really in the best interests of the country.

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. The right hon. Lady is a very experienced Member, who should not use "you". I am sure that she did not mean it.

Caroline Flint: I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman will have to look at the outcomes of the decisions that his Government have made over the course of the last few weeks.
	There is concern across the country about the announcement of cuts in police funding. I have listened to some of the comments made by Government Members. The hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) has left the Chamber. I believe that she asked why we were spending money on police buildings. One reason why we did that over the past 13 years is that some of the buildings were not fit for purpose. If we are to modernise our police force and have civilian staff carrying out jobs such as following up on crime reports by using the best technology we need buildings that are fit for purpose. It is about investing in a police force for the 21st century.
	We should also look at the partnerships created over the past 13 years. It should be recognised that the police cannot do the job of ensuring the safety of our communities, neighbourhoods and streets on their own. They have to work with others in local government, and I worry about how the cuts in the police grant will affect partnerships that have been nurtured with local authorities and community organisations. As those partners will be affected by cuts as well, the pot that is available to them, enabling them to tackle crime and antisocial behaviour in a flexible, dynamic, innovative way, will be further diminished by the lack of flexibility that is being imposed on police forces and local authorities throughout the country.
	My constituents will be keen to know how the £3 million cut in funds for South Yorkshire police will affect them, particularly given the Government's refusal to provide the guarantee to protect overall police numbers which we included in our manifesto.

David Burrowes: The right hon. Lady must appreciate-once she gets past the rhetoric-that there are difficult choices to be made about financial restraints. She mentioned her constituents. Would they be concerned about the choice to spend £6 million on advertising the policing pledge rather than on front-line services designed for their safety? If they were able to make that choice themselves, what would they decide?

Caroline Flint: I am interested in the coalition Government's attitude to the way in which information is given to the public in order to ensure that there is transparency about the provision of public services. They seem to think that that is not an important part of the compact between the people and those who enforce the law. Regardless of the debating points that are made between the Front Benches, it is clear from the findings of all the surveys in various force areas about public attitudes to the police and crime statistics that crime has fallen. However, as a constituency Member I often find that the public do not know about those figures-or, indeed, about the monthly meetings held by the police, the activities of the safer neighbourhood teams, and who is working with whom. When I give them that information in my surgeries, when I am out on the doorstep or in my newsletters, they are very pleased to receive it. I am not saying that a blank cheque should be handed to those who deal with communications. The issuing of information must be thought through properly. It must be established why the information concerned is important, and sometimes we have to pay for that information to be issued.
	I will say this to the hon. Gentleman. We currently have some 43 police forces. All of them have communications departments and press officers, and I believe that that is one of the functions that could be managed better across police force areas. The most important element of local policing for the residents of Don Valley is at borough command level, and the most important public face for people in Doncaster is our borough commander. Most of those people do not know the name of the chief constable; they are interested in what is happening in the Doncaster borough. Discussion about what is the most appropriate organisation and structure at force level, and about the elements beyond local crime that require particular attention, should be part of a debate about efficiency savings, value for money and outcomes that genuinely deal with organised crime better than we are able to at the moment.

Stewart Jackson: The right hon. Lady is making a passionate case, but I fear that she is demonstrating one of the worst aspects of the record of new Labour governance, namely an obsession with processes and the policing pledge. Is not the real issue, and the real driver for elected officials, the fact that there is currently a huge gap in accountability? At present accountability operates only between senior police officers and the Home Office, and elected officials and residents are squeezed out. That is why local people across the country support elected officials, and why our manifesto commitment has been such a success. The police family, as it is called, is hostile because vested interests are being challenged by ordinary people and elected officials.

Caroline Flint: One of the most dramatic changes in the nature of police accountability has been brought about by neighbourhood policing teams. In various parts of my constituency, local people can attend monthly meetings to engage in discussion and hold the police to account. Information from those meetings-along with other information about where antisocial behaviour is happening, which is collected and captured on computers-is tasking the police in a far more intelligent and accountable way than we have ever seen before. However, that did not just happen; it had to be driven by Government, and it was driven by a Labour Government.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: My right hon. Friend is making a brilliant speech, but does she agree that what is most important to our constituents is being able to see police officers on the beat, as well as police community support officers? Is it not absolutely disgraceful that the coalition parties have not guaranteed to protect front-line policing from cuts?

Caroline Flint: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Fine words about law and order and sanctimonious speeches about how we support the police family and the reduction of crime in our neighbourhoods are all very well, but if we do not will the means, that is not going to happen. Up and down the country, as budgets are stretched and pressures are put on the police, the good work that has been done will take two steps back rather than forward, and that is a crying shame.
	I have a long-standing interest in the handling of serious and organised crime, and the impact on that of reductions in police grant. We should view the cuts in police funding in the context of a number of other developments that undermine the ability of our police to do their job. For instance, police powers relating to CCTV and DNA have been reduced, as has been pointed out by the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies); perhaps I should call him my hon. Friend these days. Last week there was an Adjournment debate on CCTV and DNA, and I must say that I welcomed the support from the coalition Government Benches for the views expressed by Opposition Members on that day. Clearly there is some common ground in this era of new politics.
	We need a 21st-century police force that is equipped to tackle 21st-century crime and 21st-century criminals. There is no doubt that technology provides a major opportunity for the police to crack down on criminals, wherever they may be. Like many other Members, I am disturbed by some of the comments that have been made about CCTV and DNA. Obviously CCTV helps to the police to deal with antisocial behaviour, but we should not forget that both it and DNA make a major contribution to tackling far more serious and violent crimes which, I regret to say, are committed on streets throughout the country.
	I do not think that the present proposals accord with the front cover, as it were, of the Liberal Democrat-Tory coalition Government. They do not suggest that the Government really have the safety of our subjects in mind when they take responsibility for governing our policing community.
	I intervened on the Minister of State to ask whether any assessment had been made of the cost of elected police commissioners. I do not suggest that every aspect of the way in which police authorities are organised is the best thing since sliced bread. I think that some do better than others. Colleagues of mine have worked very well on police authorities and have done a good job, but that does not necessarily mean that some authorities do not need to be looked at. But what will the introduction of elected police commissioners mean for policing in our neighbourhoods? How much extra cost will it involve? Will someone who has been elected expect a higher premium on the services that he or she gives to the police? What will be the relationship between the commissioner and the chief constable?
	This brings me back to the subject of serious and organised crime. I fear that elected commissioners could find themselves responding, understandably in some respects, to the demand for attention to be paid to local policing-which is, of course, important-to the detriment of the handling of much more serious crimes which require more cross-border co-operation. I worry greatly about the impact on that. I agree that we need to discuss savings, but why has there been no financial assessment of the cost of elected police commissioners and whether, in these times of austerity, that is a good route to go down? I would suggest that it is not. Taken together, therefore, I fear that these proposals could inhibit our ability to fight serious and organised crime, and also make it more difficult to protect the country from international terrorism.
	None of us doubts the need for effective local policing. We need bobbies on the beat, and we need civilians to take on some of the jobs that then allow our fully qualified police officers to be out there fighting crime. We need to work with others, such as community support officers and community safety wardens, too. We also must not forget community organisations and groups; those that have good relationships with their local police are a vital source of information and intelligence, and also help to promote what is being done in the community to fight crime, as opposed to the lurid stuff that is often reported in the tabloid press.
	We know that every single day people feel angry and frustrated-and often isolated-by the antisocial behaviour and low-level crime on their doorstep, and that must be attended to. However, although effective community policing is rightly a priority for the police, it cannot be their only priority. As I have said, for people in Doncaster it is our borough commander at Doncaster level who, day to day, is the public face of local policing. Above that, I do not think the public necessarily care very much whether it is a south Yorkshire or a Yorkshire and Humber force; what they care about is that other levels of crime that they do not see on their doorsteps should be dealt with effectively. As the Metropolitan Police Commissioner outlined in the annual lecture to the Police Foundation on Monday night, we still face a real and severe threat from terrorists and from serious and organised crime, which costs the British economy £40 billion a year and, in its own way, affects every person in the UK. The drug dealer at the end of somebody's street, who usually is a drug addict as well, is just a small fish in a big pond. The sharks that feed that crime on the local street are living in big houses; they are not paying their taxes and they are living the life of Riley. They are the criminal entrepreneurs who put the despair on to our streets, and if we do not deal with the sharks we will not get a grip on organised crime in our country. I am very worried about the implications in respect of the police grant and the fact that the Minister said nothing-I will look at  Hansard to check this-about the impact on serious and organised crime. I would be happy for the Minister to respond to that or to indicate anything, if he wishes to do so.
	When the public are asked for their view they do not always rank serious and organised crime or even counter-terrorism as their top priority for the police. That is because people do not see that directly or immediately affecting their family and their street and community. However, many of the problems they do worry about-drugs, prostitution, illegal weapons-are intimately connected to serious and organised criminals. The real danger is that with cuts to be made and, I am afraid, with these potential commissioners falling over each over to protect the most popular police priorities, the axe will fall precisely on those areas that the public least understand but most need.

Nick Herbert: Is the right hon. Lady warning about the dangers of these directly elected individuals delivering what the public actually want in respect of local policing?

Caroline Flint: No, I am talking about the cost of these elected individuals over and above what we have at the moment, and priorities being skewed in ways that do not help.
	We need to make a better case of explaining how serious organised crime impacts on our neighbourhoods and communities so that people can see the relationship between the drug dealer in their street, the prostitutes in their neighbourhood and the counterfeit goods at the car boot sales and how that leads all the way back up to the organised criminals. I think we should have made a better case of explaining that under my Government, and I certainly think we need to do that in future, so that the link between these policing priorities can be seen. The danger is that that will not be done because these elected individuals will not be interested in that; they will just be interested in getting easy votes, whereas sometimes we as politicians have to explain the big picture so that we get the policy right.
	That is a credible and sincere thing to say. I fight every day to make sure that the communities I represent are protected from antisocial behaviour and the other problems they face, but I know, both as a former Home Office Minister and as a constituency MP, that many of the problems in our neighbourhoods develop as the young people and adults involved in antisocial behaviour become more hardened criminals, and that hardened criminals at the top end are often behind the low-level crime my constituents experience. We have to deal with both aspects. The Minister said nothing about that or about looking at better operational capacity-and in doing so saving some money along the way.

Robert Halfon: Why is it perfectly okay for people to elect councillors, MPs and all sorts of other representatives, yet the right hon. Lady does not trust people with the responsibility of electing someone who will provide an overview of the kind of policing they want for their neighbourhood?

Caroline Flint: We already have elected councillors as part of the police authorities, and I think that model could be improved. At the local level through the safer neighbourhood teams, we already have monthly accountable meetings which the public can attend and talk about their local policing priorities. This is not about being against accountability; it is about what is right and what is fit for purpose-and, to be honest, what is good value for money, which is part of the debate we are having this afternoon.

Stewart Jackson: rose-

Caroline Flint: I want to make some progress, as I have taken lots of interventions and I am very conscious that other Members want to contribute to the debate.
	The reality is that as a result of improved communications, new technologies and international mobility, serious and organised crime is becoming more sophisticated and increasingly global in reach, making the police's job more difficult. As I have said, we are dealing with 21st-century criminal entrepreneurs. They are involved in all sorts of rackets from counterfeit goods to human trafficking, prostitution and, of course, drugs, and what we need is a 21st-century police response.
	The reality, however, is that many smaller forces-there are 19 in England and Wales with fewer than 2,000 officers-already struggle to meet the challenges of modern crime, and across the board, as Sir Paul Stephenson made clear in his speech on Monday evening, police resources for tackling serious and organised crime are "unco-ordinated" and "inadequate". I am afraid to say that that is partly due to the police structures we have and a parochialism that does not address some of these serious crime issues. Many Members-probably on both sides of the House-will defend their force structure, even though it might not help or deliver the capacity to deal with some of the crimes I am talking about. That is why I believe there is a very strong case for borough- level local policing, but I am certainly not convinced that at the force level some of the sizes of organisation we have are either manageable, good value for money or even delivering what we need.
	The police believe that there are 68 criminal organisations with assets in excess of £10 million. These are organisations whose operations are complex and do not respect national borders, let alone police force borders. While inter-force collaboration is certainly improving-there are many good examples of it up and down the country-as the Bichard report clearly highlighted, the way our police service is structured means that all too often individual forces act separately and fail to share information with other forces. In an age in which criminals can escape quickly across police force boundaries, it is not sustainable for police forces to have to notify other forces in advance, or have protocols in place, before they can track and apprehend criminals. It slows everything down; it is not a good use of resources.
	In the case of the London and Glasgow bombers in June 2007, when terrorists placed two car bombs outside a nightclub in London's west end before driving to Scotland to ram their jeep into the entrance at Glasgow airport, detectives from London following the getaway car were concerned that if they had to make arrests en route they would have to ensure that local forces were notified and put on stand-by. Later there was also confusion about which force should lead on the case-whether it should be the Metropolitan police which had started the investigation, or the Strathclyde police in Glasgow where the case finished up.
	It is also difficult for smaller police forces to invest in the assets that are needed to run complex, and often international, investigations effectively. There is a case for investigations into serious and organised crime being led by larger, more centralised crime-fighting units, and merging some functions or responsibilities, or even forces, could offer economies of scale and reduce bureaucracy and costs and lead to better outputs. Alternatively, as Sir Paul Stephenson suggested, we could have a nationally co-ordinated, federated structure for tackling organised crime, whether led by the police service or as part of an extended Serious Organised Crime Agency remit.

Keith Vaz: I wonder whether my right hon. Friend has had an opportunity to look at the Select Committee's detailed report on the Serious Organised Crime Agency that was concluded earlier this year, in which we raised the issue of targets as opposed to cost. If the Government are right, we are spending £500 million on SOCA, but it sees only £23 million. Does she not think that these targets need to be improved if we are to get value for money?

Caroline Flint: I completely agree with my right hon. Friend, and the Select Committee did very good work on SOCA. I am very proud to be the former Home Office Minister who established SOCA. We brought together the National Crime Squad, the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the drugs investigation arm of Customs and Excise. However, things have gone wrong on asset recovery, on which we needed to make more progress. Also, when we developed SOCA and since, we failed properly to consider its relationship to forces around the country. It is not just a question of having a national body, but of what is happening on the ground. The link between local policing and national police services such as SOCA is absolutely crucial, and I agree with my right hon. Friend that much more needs to be done to get that right.
	The point is still well made that we can look for savings as well as better outcomes, but given that we are discussing the police grant, we must task the Minister with explaining how we are to protect the existing situation. Yes, there needs to be improvement, but we do not want to go backwards in our efforts to tackle organised crime through these reductions in the police grant.
	Examining this issue has the potential not only to make the police more effective, but to help to deliver the savings that need to be found without necessarily reducing the number of police on our streets, and to become more effective in tackling serious and organised crime. The cost of such crime to the country is £40 billion, and there are 38,000 organised criminals and 6,000 criminal organisations. There will be no new resources for dealing with organised crime and even if there were, they would never be enough to tackle terrorism, for example.
	This is a serious issue that needs to be looked at as these cuts are made, in order to ensure that we do not lose our capacity, which is already varied throughout the country, to tackle the most serious crimes that our neighbourhoods face.

Stewart Jackson: I am speaking for what I think is the third or fourth time in a police grant debate. As the legendary American baseball star "Yogi" Berra said, it is déjà vu all over again.

Mark Tami: Brilliant!

Stewart Jackson: Thank you. Except that on this occasion, of course, I am on the opposite side of the Chamber. I remember the debate on 3 February with the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who delivered his lines in a typically amenable way.
	It is appropriate at this point to welcome my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) to his position. He is a seasoned reformer, and if anyone can get to grips with delivering more for less, it is him. I also wish his predecessor as the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), all the best of luck in returning to good health; I am sure I speak for the rest of the House in that respect.
	The key word in this debate is legacy: the legacy of the fiscal disaster we inherited from the previous Labour Government on 6 May. The shadow Minister made a good fist of synthetic outrage and faux anger at this "swingeing cut" by the coalition Government-the precursor to a plague of locusts and all things doom-laden in the state. However, it is actually a funding cut in-year of 1.46%.
	Coming back to the main point made by the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), the fact is that there is nothing mutually exclusive about driving forward shared services and back-office functions across different police forces on an administrative basis, while at the same time dealing with serious organised crime through such collaborations. The problem with the previous Labour Government was that their approach was all about compulsion and a lack of proper accountability and consultation. Fundamentally, Labour did not trust people to make the right decisions, which is why it still does not trust them now and is so hostile to police commissioners.
	As I pointed out in an intervention on the right hon. Lady, there is no point in focusing moral outrage on a process-driven issue such as the policing pledge, which people in the Dog and Duck in Peterborough are not talking about at length. What people actually care about is real accountability and whether they have some say in local policing priorities. At the moment, they do not. At the moment, the accountability link is simply between the basic command unit and the chief constable, and upwards to the Home Office. Whether the right hon. Lady likes it or not, what actually drives local policing is what local police forces have been told to do by the Home Office.
	I should have prefaced my comments by pointing out that I am biased, in that I made my maiden speech, in June 2005, on the issue of elected police commissioners, the headline in the  Peterborough Evening Telegraph being, "We need city sheriff says city MP". However, it was not as simple as that. It is a question of accountability, but also of understanding that the police authorities model is probably not fit for purpose and does not command the support and respect of the many people who pay taxes and are also afflicted by crime. These are not just people in middle-class neighbourhoods and gated communities who can afford to push crime away; they include people such as those in my constituency who are perhaps not on good incomes and do not live in the most salubrious of neighbourhoods. Such people are afflicted by drug dealing, antisocial behaviour, burglary and other serious crimes. There is absolutely nothing wrong in giving those people a real say by allowing them to influence not day-to-day operational issues, but the strategic overview of the priorities taken by the local police service-in my case, Cambridgeshire constabulary.
	That was the problem of 2006, and the shadow Minister will know that it contributed, among other things, to the early departure of his erstwhile colleague the former Member for Norwich South, Charles Clarke, whose successor is in the Chamber today. The problem was one of not listening and forcing things on people, in the typical top-down regional model imposed by the Labour Government, which we have seen in fire control, and in the ill-fated campaign and referendum on the question of a regional assembly in the north-east.
	There are a number of key strategic issues that this Government are tackling head on. They are focusing, for example, on the efficiency and efficacy of what is actually done on the ground. Only 14% of police time is spent on the beat; 22% is spent on paperwork. One of the issues we need to look at-hopefully, it will be examined during the Government's review in the next few months-is the inspection regime that police services are subject to. Not only the police service but local authorities and others are subject to too much onerous, unnecessary and unnecessarily frequent inspection. Constabulary and police authority officers spend inordinate amounts of time preparing for, going through and reviewing inspection, when in fact they should be concentrating their efforts on tackling crime and putting criminals behind bars.
	I must take issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs, in that this is not a question of getting a key, opening the jail and letting everyone out. However, we do have a massive problem with recidivism and we must deal with it in an innovative way. I should declare an interest, in that Kalyx, which runs the 840-bed category B private prison in Peterborough, has been awarded a contract. It is a very interesting social experiment, and I believe that it will deliver the goods. Kalyx will receive 40% of the indicative cost of incarcerating a prisoner for one full year if it keeps that prisoner from recidivism and reoffending.
	I am no tree-hugging lily-livered liberal on this issue- [ Interruption. ] Well, I guess I am compared with my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, whose many contributions on penal policy I fondly remember, not least his comments on prisoners having access to ping-pong tables and Sky television, for instance. I believe it was Albert Einstein who said, "If you keep doing something over and over again and it doesn't work, try something else." He probably put it much more eloquently. Our approach has not worked; it costs a fortune to incarcerate people.
	When I had lunch with the senior judges at Peterborough Crown court some months ago, they made the point, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) has, that there is no point incarcerating people for very short sentences-for instance, serial burglars-if we cannot teach them to read, write or add up, if we cannot give them meaningful work to earn money and if we cannot give them a position where they feel socially useful. Punishment is important, but rehabilitation is too. If we can give them a way forward to be decent members of civil society-Kalyx will do that with the scheme at Peterborough prison-that is good for society, because it will, in the end, save money for my constituents, and those of all hon. Members, in the form of taxpayer funding.

Caroline Flint: I agree with some of the points that the hon. Gentleman is making-illiteracy among prisoners is a big problem-but what I do not understand, and what I ask him to clarify, given that we have tried everything else with many of these burglars, is why they cannot learn to read and write during six months in prison.

Lindsay Hoyle: May I just remind the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) that we are dealing with the police grant? We have strayed into discussing prisons, and although I know there is a connection, we are stretching it.

Stewart Jackson: I know that we could wander the byways and highways of penal policy for ever, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I graciously accept your admonition on that particular point and I shall return to the police grant, before you rule me out of order.
	We have to be realistic about what we are being asked to accept today.

David Hanson: May I refer the hon. Gentleman to the last words of his speech in the grant settlement debate on 3 February? They were:
	"I hope that we get a better settlement when we have a Conservative Government in the next few weeks."-[ Official Report, 3 February 2010; Vol. 505, c. 360.]
	How does he square that with the cut that he is going to vote through today?

Stewart Jackson: Having run up the largest deficit in peacetime history, and having got us into a position where we are spending more on the interest to service the Labour party's debt legacy than we are on school buildings, policing and many other areas, it is a little cheeky of the right hon. Gentleman to pray in aid my own, no doubt eloquent, soaring oratory of 3 February. Funnily enough, I was doing what most Members of Parliament are elected to do, which is speak for their constituents.
	The right hon. Gentleman tees me up nicely to return to discussing the situation in Cambridgeshire, which, again, relates to the legacy. The reason why I have spoken about the police grant on a number of occasions is that my local police authority was systematically underfunded during the whole period of the Labour Government. Our area has particular issues to address, although I must pay tribute to the outgoing chief constable, Julie Spence, who has done a superb job, at some cost to her reputation with the previous Government. They probably did not like the fact that she was socking them between the eyes and telling the truth about the actual pressures that she has been under in delivering a first-class police service. I pay particular tribute to the fact that she was willing to tell it how it is, although that may have made her slightly unpopular with Ministers, and I also pay tribute to chief superintendent Andy Hebb of the northern basic command unit.
	Labour's legacy is that because of the deliberate underfunding, Cambridgeshire has 408 fewer officers than the national force average, and Cambridgeshire's force has 185 fewer officers than similar forces. I make no apologies for saying this, because this Government have been in power for only eight weeks. If anyone has to take responsibility for underfunding the police service in Cambridgeshire it is the Labour party, which so egregiously underfunded my Cambridgeshire constabulary and my constituents' police service. However, because we have excellent police officers in Cambridgeshire, work is already in train to make the necessary savings to accommodate the £1.2 million in-year budget cut, to which the right hon. Gentleman helpfully referred, while minimising the impact on front-line services.
	My area has particular issues to address, which Ministers have known about because I have often articulated them to this House. Between 16,000 and 20,000 EU migrants have come to Peterborough since 2004, but under the previous Government precious little attempt was made by the Home Office to do anything about that, or to recognise the particular policing and crime issues that it brought. For instance, we have had to deal with people who are driving drunk, people who think it culturally acceptable to carry knives, and people who do not have insurance for their vehicles.
	People trafficking has also been an issue in my constituency, and I shall give the shadow Minister one example of that. In 2004 Cambridgeshire constabulary noted that there were three sex establishment brothels in Peterborough, whereas by 2007 there were 47. This was one of the big growth areas in the economy under the Labour Government, before they plunged the economy into the disastrous mess that we inherited.
	I was a voice crying in the wilderness, despite all the issues that I raised. Such issues included the fact that 10 of the wards most vulnerable to a breakdown in community cohesion are in Peterborough, according to the vulnerable localities index, which was developed by the Jill Dando Institute of Crime Science, and which assists police forces such as Cambridgeshire's in identifying the communities most at risk of breakdown, tension and fragmentation. Some 27% of Peterborough's primary pupils have English as a second language, with more than 80 languages being spoken. That is a clear reflection of significant demographic changes, which feed through into the challenges on crime and policing: for instance, Cambridgeshire constabulary's translation and interpretation bill is more than £1 million a year. However, we received no specific help from the previous Government to assist us in dealing with those problems. More than half of Cambridgeshire's prolific and priority offenders in the catch and convict scheme in August 2009 were in Peterborough. The northern basic command unit has dealt with more grade A incidents in this financial year to date and has also arrested more suspects in June than the other Cambridgeshire command units. This is because Peterborough is the largest urban conurbation in the county. Those are the challenges. It would be remiss of me not to admit that I see the police grant report and the debate through the prism of being a constituency Member of Parliament. Had the right hon. Member for Delyn been on the other side of the Chamber I would be saying exactly the same thing, so I make no apologies.
	New thinking is coming along the tracks. It is acceptable, and it is to be wished for, that the new Government should focus on what is being done in local government and with the Total Place concept. They should carefully examine shared functions, shared purchasing and procurement, training, human resources, payroll and other such issues, and bringing in civilians to do the jobs that front-line uniformed officers hitherto would have done, so that those officers can be put on to the front line. There are plenty of good ideas about.
	We all regret the fact that the budget has to be reduced, and we know the reasons for that. My hon. Friends will doubtless rehearse those arguments in respect of their local police authorities before the end of this debate. I do not like to say it, but I will be accepting the argument of the Government that this has to be done and that we have no choice. But it is my belief that when we have got the fiscal deficit under control, and when we are in a position really to tackle these issues after four years of innovative thinking in terms of working together across police authorities and having new police commissioners who focus principally on local people's priorities, we will be in a position to deliver a better police service at lower cost for our constituents. That is what they elected us to do.

Keith Vaz: It is always a pleasure to follow the thoughtful speeches of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson). We all thought that his ambition in life was to be the Member of Parliament for his city, but now we know that he really wants to be the sheriff of Peterborough. Whether he goes and hugs those trees is another matter, but the constituency angle that he has taken should be considered by the House when dealing with the police grant.
	I welcome the Minister to the Dispatch Box for his first of what I hope will be many debates on the police grant. I hope that he will pass on our very best wishes to the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), who as shadow Police Minister was a frequent attendee at these events and whose comments from the Dispatch Box were also very incisive.
	These are difficult times and of course we understand that a new Government are always keen to blame the previous Government for the decisions that they will make. I, too, was present at the debate earlier this year when the police grant was, in effect, agreed by both sides of the House. I do not know what those on my Front Bench have decided to do, but I assume that they will vote against the reduction in the police grant. I am not sure-I am sure that somebody will remind me-but I think that in February the House was unanimous in approving the grant, and rightly so. This is one of the priorities of the people of this country.
	I am glad to hear that in the Labour party manifesto the Home Office budget was ring-fenced. I cannot absolutely remember the section, although I imagine that my right hon. Friend the shadow Police Minister wrote it, so he would know. I am sorry that the Government did not do the same thing as part of the coalition agreement. I understand that we have to preserve the budgets of the national health service and education, but as far as law and order is concerned we-or the coalition Government-will regret the fact that they did not work harder to keep the Home Office budget intact. Why? This is a key priority, as the hon. Member for Peterborough has said, for every single Member of this House through the prism of their local constituency.
	We know that the demand from local people is for more doctors and nurses, better schools and more police officers. Every single local campaign-not just campaigns launched by the Liberal Democrat party, as some would say-local petition and local survey shows that local people say that they want more police officers. The visibility of a police officer on the beat is the absolute sign that the public are being protected. Anything that cuts into that budget and prevents the reality of the local police officer on the beat will cause each and every Member of this House some pain.
	Clearly, Opposition Members will feel some pain because Ministers and Government Members will always say, "Well, this is because of the shadow Chief Secretary's letter, so we have to do all this." Looking around the Chamber, I think that I might have been here longer than anyone else who is present-although not longer than every Member put together-and one thing that I remember and that Members should remember as elected representatives is that, ultimately, memories are quite short. Over a certain period, one can use the mantra, "They left us with no money"-eight weeks is not long enough not to use it-but by the end of the year local people will be very frustrated when they pick up their phones and the police officers they want are not there.
	That was why I was so pleased to hear the commitment made from the Dispatch Box this afternoon by the Police Minister: he anticipates that, notwithstanding the reduction in the police grant, the number of police officers in front-line services will remain intact. Of course, the actual analysis is out of his hands. At the end of the day, it will be for local chief constables and police authorities to say whether that is what happens, but I know that that is his ambition and it is a very good ambition for a Police Minister to have. It is a very good ambition for a Conservative-even though it is a coalition Government-Police Minister to stand up at a Dispatch Box in the House of Commons and to say in his first speech, "We do not want to reduce the number of police officers. We want to keep it the same and perhaps, if we get those structural changes, to increase it." As he knows, one of the great achievements of the previous Government was a record number of police officers-147,000 police officers, 16,000 police community support officers and 79,000 new civilians working in the police force. These are figures to die for, in my view. Every Police Minister would love to get to the Dispatch Box and say that those figures will remain intact.
	We must work with the Government to try to ensure that that happens. I know that it sounds odd, but I have always seen policing issues as above party politics. There is agreement that local people want to see crime reduced, they want to see their police officers out on the beat and they want to be able to see quick responses to their problems, so let us see whether there is a way in which we can help the Government to do that. Tomorrow, the Home Secretary is coming to give evidence to the Select Committee-it will be her first appearance. I am very pleased that the Police Minister is coming in two weeks' time, and I thank him for the speed with which he responded to my request. That is the appropriate mechanism to analyse the Government's claims and the concerns of local police committees and chief constables. We want to get to a position where we use the pot of money properly and adequately, so that there is not the reduction in numbers that I think will happen but the Minister hopes will not.
	Those changes that we have heard about today have been present in every debate that we have had on policing, certainly during the three years for which I have been the Chair of the Select Committee. The first is structural change, by consent and not for structural change's sake. The second is collaboration. As we have seen throughout the country, forces are working together, whether that involves borrowing a helicopter, as they did in Cumbria during the Whitehaven tragedy, or the way in which the police force in Northumberland reacted so quickly to the problems of the past two weeks. Such collaboration is ongoing. The third is better procurement, so that we have one set of contracts rather than 43.
	The fourth change is ensuring that we do not just have initiatives. I accept what the Minister says when he asks what the point is of a brand-new police station-people do not really want their police officers in a police station; they want them outside. But sometimes we need brand-new police stations. We cannot expect all our police officers to operate from a Doctor Who-type TARDIS. There have to be police stations to hold people in detention, so that officers can deal with those requirements that legislators place on our local police forces.
	The fifth change is a reduction in bureaucracy. Of course, we all agree that that should happen. Let us implement the Berry report and the Flanagan report in full. The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) was a member of the Select Committee in the last Parliament and he co-authored the report, "Policing in the 21st century", which talked about all those things but also about investment in technology. In the long term, we can cut bureaucracy by giving police officers hand-held computers. The Minister will not win his battle with the Treasury for more money, because he is trying to cope with less money. However, that is what we have to do in the future.
	We have an investment in this matter on both sides of the House as constituency MPs as well as a duty to the public to ensure that we work together to try to cut away waste. I do not think that there is a huge amount of waste in the police force. I know that we have heard about potted plants and iPods in certain Government Departments, but there is always a story like that. I assure the Minister that in a couple of years' time, the Opposition will be coming out with such stories. The fact is that we need to ensure that when we give money it is monitored much more closely. Perhaps there ought to be more strings. The last Government were probably too generous in providing so much funding and not being very firm in monitoring it.

Michael Ellis: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is a question not just of pot plants and mood music, but of the fact that police forces in England and Wales have to deal with some 6,500 pages of nationally given guidelines from the Home Office and the Association of Chief Police Officers? Her Majesty's chief inspector of constabulary said only a few days ago that putting those documents end to end would reach as high as the Eiffel tower. That is waste and bureaucracy, is it not?

Keith Vaz: Yes, it is. I do not say that everything the last Government did was absolutely perfect. I have related one example to the House on many occasions. I once went up to Staffordshire and looked at the work of Staffordshire police to reduce the documentation that is required when someone is charged from 24 sheets to one sheet. After that, every time the Home Secretary got up, I asked, "Have you rolled out this brilliant idea across the country?" but the answer was no, because the system worked so slowly. We will expect better from this Policing Minister, because he is so keen to deal with waste. We want to make sure that good practice is adopted as quickly as possible and is rolled out. We do not want excuses such as that it takes a long time to write a letter to chief constables.
	The points raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) are correct. I did not know that she actually invented the Serious Organised Crime Agency; had I done so, we would have called her to give evidence. There are examples of our providing huge amounts of money, such as half a billion pounds for SOCA, which seized only £23 million, and £400,000 for the National Policing Improvement Agency, and spending £79 million on consultants. Those are the kinds of issues that we should have dealt with in the past 13 years, but sometimes Ministers cannot, as the new Minister will find, know exactly what is going on.

Caroline Flint: They do not stay long enough.

Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. In her case, she was promoted to become the Minister for Europe and the rest is history. We need Ministers to stay in place long enough to see what happens when their decisions are implemented.
	The Select Committee will be constructive and will not just condemn. We are going to put good practice on our website, without waiting for it to go on the Home Office website, with lots of arrows pointing to good practices and asking, "Why isn't this followed in Cambridgeshire, Essex, Leicestershire or elsewhere?" We will hold the Government to account on that.
	The Minister has repeated the words that were used at the Association of Chief Police Officers conference of 1 July, saying that he wants the police to be crime fighters, not form fillers. We all agree with that-there is no problem with that statement-but a reduction in the police grant is proposed today, and if the comprehensive spending review cuts the police budget by 25%, ACPO has said that would mean 20,000 fewer police officers. There will be conflict between the Government and the police force, because it will not remain silent, just as it did not remain silent on police pay.
	I had only one really robust conversation with the previous Prime Minister, which will not be in my memoirs, although I have thought of a name for them: I am going to call them "The 23rd Man" rather than "The Third Man". That robust conversation occurred when I reminded him that we had a duty to respect the police. There is no point in Ministers and shadow Ministers, every time there is some great tragedy, coming to the Dispatch Box and praising the police but then not giving them the pay rise that was agreed in arbitration. When we are in the position of cutting perhaps 20,000 police officers, we will have a severe problem and the police force will be in conflict with the Government. I hope it does not come to that.
	I hope also that Parliament will support the Minister in his battle with the Treasury. I know it is difficult for Ministers to do this in the current economic climate, but policing policy needs defending. The Minister should feel confident that he can go to the Chancellor, quote speeches such as that of the hon. Member for Peterborough and say, "At a local level, we cannot have fewer police officers. We must retain the level and we must invest in our police service." I joined others on the streets of our capital to oppose what the Labour Government did on police pay, because I think that we need to defend the police not just at the Dispatch Box, but outside.

Robert Halfon: I am interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman's eloquent speech. He talks about retaining numbers, but given that 80% of the police budget is spent on staffing costs, which is a huge amount, surely one way of retaining the numbers is by reducing that 80%.

Keith Vaz: That will, of course, happen with the reduction before us today, even though some chief constables have said that they will not make police officers redundant. Under the proposals that Treasury Ministers have put to the Home Office for a reduction of 25%, I am afraid that that will happen. What I am saying is that he will have to go back to Harlow, as I will have to go back to Leicester and other Members will have to go back to their constituencies, and explain why that has happened. The mantra, "They left us with no money," is not going to be enough, so we need to work constructively. We need to help the Minister to do battle with the Treasury. We need to try to ring-fence this budget, because policing is just as important as the NHS and just as important as schools and education. It needs to be protected. I hope that the Minister understands that in the months ahead, with the CSR and other considerations, he should feel free to come to Parliament and listen to what colleagues are saying about the impact at local level. If he does that, he will understand that the global figures are one thing, but that the cuts at local level will be severe.
	This is an important debate and I hope that we will have another opportunity in the near future to discuss all the other ideas that Members have put forward, because the package cannot stand on its own. It has to be done with all the other reforms and changes that are necessary. I thought that my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) was a pretty good Police Minister, but if he were here doing what the present Minister is doing, I would vote against his Government, because I think it is wrong to reduce the police budget in this way. We need to realise how important this area of policy is and do our best to defend it.

David Nuttall: I think we need to be clear about one thing: if the last Government had spent within their means, we would not now be having this debate and we would not be faced with having to reduce the police grant. As a nation, we simply cannot go on spending at the rate we are-borrowing £1 out of every £4 we spend. The reduction of the police grant must be seen in that context. It is a direct consequence of Labour's economic mismanagement. I am confident that the police will have the managerial abilities to absorb the 1.46% reduction without front-line services being affected. Let us remember that even after the reduction, the police grant for this year will still be higher than it was last year. Compared with last year, this is not a cut, but simply a smaller increase.
	In times of economic hardship, every area of expenditure has to be examined and we have to ask whether items of expenditure are really necessary. We have to ask whether what we are doing could be done more economically. The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) talked about neighbourhood policing teams holding monthly meetings; we have to ask whether they really have to be monthly. Has any analysis been done of what percentage of local residents attend those meetings every month? As the chief constable of Greater Manchester police, Peter Fahy wrote earlier this month:
	"The numbers of staff in front line policing is important, but more important is what these staff are doing, the degree to which they are freed up from bureaucracy and the overall impact they are achieving."
	The Government have already scrapped Labour's targets for the police force and have made it clear that the police's only job is to cut crime. The only real test of an effective police force is not what it spends or the number of staff it employs, but how it protects the public it serves. Under this Government, police paperwork is being cut so that the police can spend more time out on the beat. That is what the public want to see, and I urge the whole House to support the motion.

Stephen McCabe: One of the Government's first acts was to cut £7 million from the West Midlands police budget in this financial year. We are seeing cuts in police numbers, cuts in prison places and restrictions on closed circuit television and the use of DNA. I worry about the start that the Government have made, and I worry about the signal that they are sending on crime. Sir Hugh Orde, the president of Association of Chief Police Officers, has warned that it will be impossible to sustain the current number of police officers under the Government's plans. Far from being fair and reasonable, as the Minister suggested, Sir Hugh says that it will be impossible to meet the demand for police on the streets.
	The West Midlands police force is not an inefficient one. It is quite willing to recognise that it must make savings in these difficult financial times. Under Programme Paragon, it has ripped up its 21 command units and reduced them to 11 local policing units. That should save about £50 million, or about 8% of its budget, over three years. The force is not resistant to the economic circumstances that it faces. It is cutting overtime and bonus payments. It is cutting its training budget by about £500,000-not something that, I am sure, is necessarily a good measure in the long run-but it is certainly not resisting the Government's suggestion that it should make efficiencies. The reality is that, despite what it is doing, it is being punished by the Government for taking reasonable steps to recognise the economic circumstances that we live in.
	The Minister failed to answer my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) when she asked about elected police commissioners, but the West Midlands police authority's view is that those proposals are unnecessary and unwelcome. I have as yet had no contact from constituents to tell me that the biggest priority for policing is to elect police commissioners. I have had plenty of contacts from constituents about crime and policing issues, but electing police commissioners is certainly not one of them. The West Midlands police authority makes it quite clear that it fears that the Government will politicise the police. That is what that proposal risks doing.
	The reality is that not only is the West Midlands police force an efficient one, but crime is falling in the west midlands and public satisfaction surveys are good. The surveys show that the public are happy with the police response and welcome the greater visibility of the police. I can give the figures for attending the local tasking meetings in my constituency. If the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) does not have that information, I suggest that he contact his local commander, because it is available in most forces.
	Bishop Derek Webley, who is the independent chairman of the police authority, has warned that the danger in a place such as the west midlands is that an elected police commissioner-a single person-cannot represent our diverse community. Far from such elections being an open step on accountability, they will be a backward step and do the opposite. The reality is that this is simply a Tory party experiment that survived; it is a Tory manifesto commitment that endured, while the Liberal Democrat promise on police numbers was dropped. It is an experiment that, in these straitened economic times, which we have been told about repeatedly today, will cost about £50 million-money that could be spent on policing, including protecting my constituents. If the Government are worried about austerity and the problems of the deficit, this is hardly the time to engage in political experiments with the police. It is an utterly unwelcome step. As Bishop Webley says, it is "a costly exercise" that will put the focus on short-term policing.
	The things that we have heard suggested in the debate today, such as the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley that there should be a better connection between local problems and how organised crime develops, will be lost because we will elect someone every four years whose sole priority will be to get re-elected. The whole focus of policing will be skewed as a result of these measures. I have not heard a single constituent say that they are welcome. I have not heard a single rational defence of them today. We are told that the Government are worried about money, but they are prepared to waste money on an unnecessary experiment while they cut mainstream police budgets.

Ian Paisley Jnr: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that one of the tried and tested experiments that the last Government made in Northern Ireland was the Policing Board? It was made up of a majority of elected members, not elected directly but drawn from the Northern Ireland Assembly, and a minority of people chosen by the Government from the community. Although it was ridiculed at first, it became one of the most stable ways to hold the police to account, because it included exactly what he suggests: cross-community, cross-sectoral interest groups, holding the police to account on a regular monthly basis. That has resulted in crime being driven down because police performance was put under the microscope monthly.

Stephen McCabe: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Policing in Northern Ireland is particularly difficult, but the steps that have been taken there have helped to broaden community support for the police. I am not averse to any measure that will make the police more accountable or broaden community support, but I am averse to wasting £50 million, when we have financial difficulties, on an experiment that has no basis or validity and that no Minister has yet shown any willingness to try to defend. That is what I am against.
	The Liberal Democrats told us that they would put more police on the streets by scrapping identity cards. Well, we have considered the Identity Documents Bill in Committee-the Bill to scrap ID cards is in train-but it will not save us money; the Government will spend an extra £500 million this year to scrap ID cards. That money could be spent on the police. If they spent more time thinking about the police and less time pursuing these fantasies and being obsessed with cuts that serve an ideological purpose, which is their real basis, the police would be better off.
	The West Midlands police are very concerned that the Government have indicated that they are not likely to give them a special grant, as is the normal custom, to cover the security costs of the Pope's visit. Perhaps the Minister will want to say something about that at some stage, but as well as having our budget cut, we will incur extra costs, which a Government would normally partly support with an additional grant. That is what happened when the Labour party was in power. I can remember occasions, including the G8 summit, when such funding was provided, but that has not been promised this time.

Barry Gardiner: I do not know whether my hon. Friend caught what Lord Patten said on the radio the other day. As the organiser of the Pope's visit, he said that there will be a clear separation in that the costs of the state visit will be borne by the state and, where the visit is for Church-related purposes, the costs will be borne by the Church. Clearly, I do not know which category specific events will fall into when the Pope is in my hon. Friend's constituency, but I recommend that he has words with Lord Patten to ensure that the appropriate funding is received from the appropriate body and that there is no additional strain on the public of his constituency in the west midlands.

Stephen McCabe: I take my hon. Friend's point. I simply say that it is customary to provide a special grant for such events. That is not what the West Midlands police authority has been promised at the moment. If the Minister wants to correct that, I am quite happy to give way to him. Not only are the Government not giving a special grant, but they will make the West Midlands police authority meet 20% of the cost of Operation Pelkin-to the rest of us, that is the Tory party conference in Birmingham in October. Some £800,000, which could be spent on supporting my constituents in their fight against crime, will be spent on supporting the Tory party conference in Birmingham. I am afraid that it is nonsense to say that this is a fair and reasonable settlement, and that the Government are doing what they have to do because of an economic necessity. This is the Tory party doing what the Tory party always does. It has a pretext for attacking the public sector and the police. It will waste money on political experiments and make my constituents pay the cost. The things that it promised before the election are as worthless as the policies that it is implementing now.

Nigel Mills: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe). I seem to have spent most of my short career as a Member listening to him in the Identity Documents Public Bill Committee and in the Chamber-his tones are deceptively Birmingham-sounding.
	I shall confine my remarks to the amending report on the police budget and the reasons why I am prepared to support it, despite Derbyshire's police funding problems. I campaigned on the need to tackle this country's humungous budget deficit, and we cannot escape the fact that the Home Office will have to do its fair share of dealing with the problem. As much as we would like the savings to be found from admin costs in the Home Office-and perhaps by addressing the 6,500 pages of national guidance about which we have heard-we must accept that police forces will have to find their share of the cost.
	My worry about the approach that has been adopted is that a straight-line saving is to be applied to each and every police force throughout the country, despite the different funding that those forces enjoyed-if I can use that word-under the previous Government. Following my discussions with the Minister about this point, I accept that if he was to bring about in-year funding, he had no alternative but to take such an approach. However, if we are to achieve value-for-money, efficient and effective police forces in the long term, we will need to ensure that each force receives fair funding and to implement the existing funding formula fully, instead of showing what each force needs and then giving it a vastly different amount, perhaps to help more preferred regions.
	It is easy for a Back Bencher to accept the need for cuts in theory but then to demand that those cuts do not affect their own force and constituency. As a Derbyshire Member, I would find it particularly easy to cite facts to support that argument-I shall talk about them later-but I assure the Minister that I am not asking him to increase the police budget. I even accept that he cannot maintain the current budget for forces, but I hope that he will implement the funding formula properly so that forces such as Derbyshire get the funding that the formula says they need, rather than a significantly smaller amount.
	The Derbyshire force is the 10th lowest spending force per head. The previous Government's failure to implement the funding formula has cost Derbyshire £26 million over the past five years, and £4.5 million in this year alone. That money could give Derbyshire an extra 200 police officers, perhaps 20 of whom would be in my constituency, with seven for each town. Hon. Members can imagine the improvement that that would make to my constituents' lives.
	The cause of the lack of funding is not that Derbyshire is a low-crime area; I am comparing the funding given by the previous Government with the amount for which the funding formula should provide on the basis of Derbyshire's crime needs. We have heard a lot about how forces could collaborate to save money, but the problem affects not just Derbyshire, because forces throughout the whole east midlands are significantly underfunded. East midlands police forces receive the lowest grant per crime in the country-£1,459-while the Met and north-east forces receive more than £2,400 per crime. That is not fair to the people of the east midlands, Derbyshire or Amber Valley.
	I urge the Minister to address the problem. I am not saying that the east midlands and Derbyshire forces cannot make efficiency savings or do things better-the forces themselves would not say that-but surely it cannot be right that we expect the Derbyshire force to make efficiency savings on its grant of £1,459 per crime when other forces receive an extra £1,000 a crime. Such forces must find it easier to make efficiency savings than those that already receive less funding.
	I am asking not for a wholesale, lengthy and expensive review of the funding formula, just that it is implemented properly. I am not asking the Minister to do that today, or even in full from next year. However, he needs to accelerate the progress towards removing the damping process so that, by the end of this Parliament, the police receive their fair share of the funding and can therefore do their fair share of tackling crime.

Robert Halfon: As part of the effort to reduce the £900 billion of public debt, Essex police authority's budget is being cut in this financial year. Mr Barker-McCardle, the Essex chief inspector, has said that it is his
	"absolute priority to sustain front-line operational...services".
	Essex police have made efficiencies of 25% in four years and spend just £153 per capita on policing each year, compared with £175 elsewhere. Given the force's track record of shrinking back-office costs, the Essex chief constable has said that he is
	"optimistic that we can tackle a £2.6 million cut without taking police officers off the street."
	Front-line policing is therefore safe in Harlow and in Essex, but there is a more substantial question: how can we deliver better policing, given our financial constraints? There are several strands to that thread, but I shall concentrate on just one.
	If we transform special constables into a Territorial Army-type force, they could cover more policing duties and offer excellent value for money. That could be paid for by rebalancing our police forces over several years. For example, as natural churn and retirement thin the ranks of police community support officers, each PCSO could be replaced by two or three special constables, each on a TA-type stipend. That would increase a force's overall capacity at times of crisis, as well as save money. It would also do a huge amount to boost retention among specials, who are very expensive to train, recruit and equip.Specialsmake up a genuinely local force, like neighbourhood watch, and offer an invaluable source of community intelligence.
	For the past six years, Essex police authority has been working in harmony and partnership with the Conservative county council and Kent police authority. During that time, Essex's specials force has doubled from 350 officers to nearly 700. That is a credit to Essex police authority and the brave volunteers who serve the public as specials, often in hazardous conditions. We need to build on that solid base by incentivising specials to work more hours and develop professionally.

Susan Elan Jones: I greatly value "two for the price of one" in my local supermarket, but does the hon. Gentleman really think that that is appropriate when dealing with crime, policing, and law and order?

Robert Halfon: I absolutely believe that a larger number of specials would help our front-line policing considerably.
	I accept that I am setting out the embryo of an idea and that the proposal's costs and benefits would need rigorous assessment, but I think that it is worth exploring. In the context of unavoidable cuts to police grants, a better retention rate among special constables would save money. Specials also give communities a tough local police force with full powers. More specials would, like the TA, give us defence in depth at a time of crisis.
	I must stress, however-I am sure that this will please the Minister-that I am not calling for more money to be spent. My proposal is about refocusing the resources that we already have. Sadly, this year's £2.6 million cut to Essex policing is Labour's legacy, but I am glad that Mr Barker-McCardle has said that it is his
	"absolute priority to sustain front-line operational police services".
	If we want to deliver better policing with less money, we must enhance the special constables, because every time that we lose a special, we incur the cost of recruiting, training and equipping another, as well as losing their experience. The cuts are unavoidable and, of course, to be regretted, but they give us an opportunity to transform our police service with a focus on value for money. As part of that process, I hope that we will consider enhancing special constables.

Mark Spencer: I am grateful to be called in the debate. I will support the Government today, but with the proviso that we look at the funding formula. I am not blessed with the deficit denial that some hon. Members seem to be blessed with. The fact that we find ourselves in such dire financial circumstances leads me to the conclusion that we clearly need to take action, but we need to create a balance amongst some of the police forces. There will always be strains between different regional authorities and regions, but only one region loses out across the board, and that is the east midlands. In particular, Nottinghamshire police has had enormous problems in terms of getting its fair share of the funding formula.
	The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) referred to the strain on the Northumberland police created by the Moat case. I know he will have been grateful for the expertise of the Nottinghamshire firearms department, which assisted in that case despite the enormous disparity between those two police authorities. It may be worth pointing out that last year in Nottinghamshire there were 23,122 violent crimes, and in Northumberland there were 20,868. Clearly, Nottinghamshire has more violent crime. However, Nottinghamshire receives £141 per capita, whereas Northumberland receives £171 per capita, an enormous difference of £30. That manifests itself in the number of police officers that are available to each authority. In Nottinghamshire, we have 2,380 officers; Northumberland has 4,028. There is no doubt that such a disparity in the funding formula leads to the criticism of Nottinghamshire police, which many hon. Members will have seen in the press, and praise for Northumberland police. Will the Minister commit to implementing at a much greater speed the recommendations of the Flanagan report, and the Lyons report which preceded it, in balancing the amount of cash to our regions and authorities.
	I welcome many of the policies that the Minister is bringing forward. I look forward to elected police commissioners. Many constituents tell me that the police do not recognise their priorities, and having an elected police commissioner will focus the minds of those police authorities on their genuine needs and priorities, and make sure that they are addressed. I welcome the examination of the procurement process nationally. I cannot help but notice that after 13 years, the previous Government started to talk about that in their last year, and within nine weeks of coming to the Dispatch Box, the Minister is driving that forward and moving us in the right direction. That really highlights the difference between talk and action, and I welcome the fact that the Government will take action and ensure that we get the right results.

Nick Herbert: We have had a good debate and a number of points have been made by right hon. and hon. Members, to which I will try to respond as quickly as I can. My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) asked for an assessment of police numbers now, and it is true that some forces were freezing recruitment before the general election. He also asked about our stance in relation to the comprehensive spending review, a point that was also made by the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who suggested that the police budget should have been protected. We will not know the amounts that will be available for policing until the outcome of that spending review, and those are precisely the discussions that we are having within Government at the moment. Again, decisions will be made about the special grants, including those for neighbourhood policing and so on, which we will announce in good time.
	The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), who I am sorry to see is no longer in his place, was concerned about the Pope's visit. I understand that a bid is expected from Warwickshire police, whose region the Pope will visit, and from other forces, such as the West Midlands, and they will be considered under the special grant. The hon. Gentleman complained about policing costs in relation to the Conservative party conference that is due to be held in Birmingham. Considerable economic benefits accrue to places where party conferences are held, in terms of the number of people attending and so on. I understand that West Midlands police have bid for £4.5 million of special grant for the costs incurred in policing the Conservative party conference this year. By comparison, Greater Manchester police have bid for £4.2 million for the cost of policing the Labour party conference in Manchester this year. That is more than the amount awarded to Greater Manchester police in special grant for the costs incurred in policing the Conservative party conference in October the previous year. Labour Members might like to reflect on why in opposition their conference should be more expensive to police than the Conservative party conference was when it was in opposition.
	The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) made a forceful speech in which I understood her to propose that there should be compulsory amalgamations of police forces. I know that that is a policy that has long since been abandoned by the official Opposition, having failed to deliver it. I did talk about the importance of serious crime and ensuring collaboration to deal with it.

Caroline Flint: rose -

Nick Herbert: If the right hon. Lady will forgive me, I have no time.

Caroline Flint: rose -

Nick Herbert: I have very little time, if hon. Members will forgive me. I want to respond to the thoughtful contribution to the Select Committee Chair.

Caroline Flint: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is plenty of time, and as the hon. Gentleman has accused me of suggesting a policy that I did not suggest, I should have the right to intervene.

Lindsay Hoyle: That is not a point of order. The debate can continue until 3.47 pm, but it is up to the Minister to decide whether to accept an intervention.

Nick Herbert: I will allow the right hon. Lady to intervene.

Caroline Flint: I thank the Minister. I did not suggest that there should be compulsory amalgamation of police forces. I was pointing out the problems in the current force structure that must be attended to to ensure that we have the best possible capacity to deal with serious and organised crime. That is a debate that we should be having, both in terms of value for money and efficiency.

Nick Herbert: I think that many of us heard the right hon. Lady suggest that there should be forced amalgamations. We will be able to read the record and check. I am happy to have her assurance that she DID not, in which case her position would appear not to differ from that of the Government. I remind her that I talked about being tougher and about achieving savings and collaboration where there was a policing need, for instance, in relation to serious crime. I do not believe she was making points that had not been understood by the Government in relation to the importance of ensuring that policing serious crime is protected.
	I listened with interest to the contribution of the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee. He drew attention to the importance of assessing the effectiveness and performance of the national policing bodies, including the Serious Organised Crime Agency and the National Policing Improvement Agency, which is under review. We do have concerns about value for money and ensuring that those organisations deliver the necessary outcomes, given the large sums of taxpayers' money that are awarded to them. He was right to draw attention to that.
	On the right hon. Gentleman's warnings about relations with the police in the future, I should point out that we are asking police officers, in common with other public sector employees, to make sacrifices. We expect the police service to be subject to the same pay freeze-dependent on proper negotiations with the Police Negotiating Board-as other members of the public sector, and we want to ensure that the police are treated both fairly and equally.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) talked about the importance of special constables, and I could not agree more. In the 1950s, partly as a hangover from the war, there were 67,000 specials; now there are 14,000. Some progress has been made in recent years to recruit more, but there is a huge untapped potential to recruit more policing volunteers, and we should take that seriously, rather than dismissing it, as I thought one Opposition Member intended to do.
	In an effective speech about the importance of local policing, my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) talked about the faux anger and synthetic outrage that we have seen from Opposition Members. We have seen not only that but exaggerated claims about the impact of the spending cuts that we are now asking the House to approve. I repeat that, for each police force, these cuts represents less than 1.5% of the amount of money that they will receive from central Government, and less than 1% of their total budget this year. I repeat also, whose fault is it? It is the fault of the Opposition, given the economic legacy that they have bequeathed to this country, and it is the responsibility of this Government and our Members to deal with it. We will face up to that responsibility, and I hope that hon. Members will support the motion.

Question put.
	 The House divided: Ayes 324, Noes 234.

Question accordingly agreed to.
	 Resolved,
	That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2010-11: Amending Report 2010-11 (House of Commons Paper No. 47), which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved.

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

Theresa May: I beg to move,
	That the draft Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 24 June, be approved.
	Our country has many years' experience of dealing with terrorism. Five years after the appalling events of 7/7, the threat from Islamist terrorists is well known. The threat from dissident Irish republican terrorists has not gone away, and new threats will undoubtedly emerge in future.
	Terrorism is not just another crime. Its purpose is political, its methods are barbaric and its effects can be devastating. For those reasons, dealing with terrorism and terrorist suspects cannot be treated in the same way as dealing with other crimes and other criminal suspects. The potential loss of life from terrorism means that the priority of the police and security agencies is to stop attacks happening in the first place. That often means that they have to intervene at a very early stage to prevent the terrorists' plans from becoming too far advanced, which often means that there has been insufficient time to gather enough admissible evidence to charge the suspects. So, uniquely in terrorism cases, it is often after arrest that most of the evidential investigation takes place.
	Furthermore, once arrests have been made the police can be presented with an enormous volume of information, which is exacerbated by three things: first, modern communications, because of the increasing and more sophisticated use of encryption; secondly, globalisation, because of the complexity of international terrorist networks and the need for co-operation in often difficult diplomatic circumstances; and, thirdly, the ambitions of the terrorists, because of the need for forensic examination of the hazardous and volatile materials that many wish to use as their weapons.
	Unlike Ministers in the previous Government, I say that not to make the case for 28 days', 42 days' or 90 days' detention before charge, but because I believe that it is important to remember during the debate the gravity of the threat that we face, and the difficulty of the job done by the police and the intelligence and security services.

Jeremy Corbyn: Obviously, one understands that there is an important and serious job of investigation to be done. However, this country has a uniquely long period of pre-trial detention-far longer than that of any comparable country. I know that the Home Secretary has undertaken a review of that, so would not it be sensible to give a signal that we intend to reduce the length of pre-charge detention, by decreasing it to 14 days today rather than reaffirming the 28-day order? We reaffirmed the prevention of terrorism Acts throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Every time we said that the matter would be re-examined. Maybe this time, we should do something.

Theresa May: If the hon. Gentleman has some patience and listens to what I am saying, he will hear the signal that I want to give about 28 days. However, he will recognise that, by definition, the fact that I have moved that the order for the 28-day measure be continued for six months means that I am not suggesting that the detention period should change to 14 days today.
	I have set out the nature of the threat, and it is important that we recognise its gravity in the debate, but it must be met by taking proportionate action, and the job must be done with proportionate powers. That is why, yesterday, I announced the inclusion of pre-charge detention in my review of counter-terrorism powers, along with control orders, stop-and-search powers, the use of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, deportations with assurances, and measures to deal with organisations promoting hatred or violence.
	I want to make it absolutely clear to the House that I consider the 28-day limit to be a temporary measure, and I want it brought to an end once I have completed my review. Since the power to detain for 28 days was passed by Parliament and came into force in July 2006, 11 people have been held for more than 14 days, eight were charged with terrorist-related offences, and four were found guilty. Of those, six people have been held for between 27 and 28 days, three were charged with terrorist-related offences, and two were found guilty. No suspect has been held for more than 14 days since July 2007. When one considers that in the 12 months ending in December 2009 28 terrorism-related trials were completed, with 93% convictions, including six life sentences, it is clear to me that the power to detain for up to 28 days is not needed routinely for the police to investigate, interrogate and charge terrorist suspects.
	The possibility remains that in some extreme circumstances it might be necessary to detain some suspects beyond 14 days, but those circumstances remain rare and extreme, and we need to be sure that the powers are never abused. That is why we need to take time to consider pre-charge detention as part of the review of counter-terrorism powers. Therefore, in moving today's motion, I am asking hon. Members not to support 28 days indefinitely, nor to support 28 days for 12 months, as was envisaged in the Terrorism Act 2006, but to support a renewal for six months while the counter-terrorism review considers how we can reduce the limit.
	The draft order that I have laid before the House will come into force on 25 July and will expire on 24 January 2011. After that, it will be up to me as Home Secretary to come back to the House to ask for a further extension, to let the limit fall to 14 days, or to present new proposals that reduce the limit but introduce contingency arrangements in extreme circumstances.
	The review of counter-terrorism powers will, as I said yesterday, be informed by the principles of the coalition Government. Those principles-shared principles-are based on a respect for our ancient civil liberties and individual freedom. There is nothing we take more seriously than our duty to protect the public, but in doing so we will not, as the previous Government did, forget to defend our way of life.

Pete Wishart: In her reply to me yesterday, the Home Secretary said that her favoured time would be 14 days. We know that that is the view of the Liberals and the view that is coming out of the Home Office, so why waste time and expense if we already know the result? Why not get on with this today, and just go back to 14 days?

Theresa May: I made it clear to the hon. Gentleman in my answer yesterday that 14 days represents my personal view, but I also said in answer to him and a number of hon. Members that I do not think it right to pre-empt the result of the review. As I indicated, one option from the review might be to return to the House with a proposal for a reduced period of pre-charge detention, but with the possibility of contingency arrangements for extreme circumstances, when it may be necessary to take detention beyond 14 days. We should wait to hear the options that come from the review. That is why I am suggesting that hon. Members today support an extension, albeit just for those six months.
	I referred to the principles of the coalition Government and said that we would not forget to defend our civil liberties, but that we take the duty to protect the public more seriously than anything else. The need to get that balance right is why we have already introduced legislation to get rid of identity cards and announced interim restrictions on the use of stop-and-search powers under terrorism legislation, and why I included the controversial use of automatic number plate recognition cameras in the review of CCTV regulations. We will introduce a freedom Bill, adopt the protections of the Scottish model for the DNA database, restore rights to non-violent protest, end the storage of internet and e-mail records without good reason, and extend the scope of the Freedom of Information Act. Freedom runs through the DNA of this coalition Government, and it will apply to our work on pre-charge detention as it will to everything else we do.
	The country has not only a new Government, but a new Parliament. Having spoken to many new hon. Members as well as old, I know that this Parliament takes very seriously its role in protecting our freedoms. I therefore hope that we can today rise above the sort of arguments put forward by Ministers in the previous Parliament, and work out together how we can reduce the limit, subject to adequate safeguards and contingency plans. I extend that invitation to Opposition Front Benchers.
	Yesterday, when I announced the review of counter-terrorism legislation, the shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), queried the need for further safeguards,
	"given that 28-day detention has to be re-approved by Parliament each year".-[ Official Report, 13 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 799.]
	However, what sort of safeguard was that, given that the previous Government used to whip Labour MPs to reinstate it every year, come what may? Similarly, one source was quoted in a national newspaper this morning as saying:
	"You either have complete security or complete civil liberties-you cannot have both."
	I am afraid that that sort of zero-sum mentality damaged individual freedom under the previous Government. It is time we moved beyond that thinking, so that we have a more mature approach that balances the need for national security with important civil liberties.
	I am aware that in asking many hon. Friends and hon. Members to vote for this temporary six-month measure today, I am asking them to take a deep breath and vote for a measure that they do not very much like. But I can assure them that if they support this order, I will work with hon. Members on both sides of the House to find a solution that reduces the limit for pre-charge detention, but gives the police the powers they need to keep us all safe from those who would bring devastation to our country. I commend the order to the House.

Alan Johnson: It seems that the Home Secretary and I are allies in the debate this afternoon-although, having read her written ministerial statement and listened to her speech, I think that she is adopting the position of St Augustine-"Lord, make us virtuous, but not yet". The Home Secretary and I have many things in common, among them our charm, panache, looks and preference for flat shoes. And we both voted for 28 days in 2005. Neither of us has ever voted against 28 days, and we both belong to political parties that made no mention of reducing pre-charge detention of terrorist suspects in our manifestos.
	This issue will, of course, form part of the review that the Home Secretary rather foolishly described yesterday as putting right the failures of the previous Government. If 28 days was a failure, it is strange that she should advocate the continuation of that failure today. She is right to do so: as so often with the Home Secretary, the problem is not so much what she does as the way in which she does it. She told us yesterday that personally she was always in favour of 14 days. We understand that it is impossible to tell what she believes from her voting record, but this fervour for 14 days has been a well-kept secret. She has always actually voted for 28 days.
	Incidentally, the person whom the Home Secretary has appointed to provide independent oversight of the review-the former Director of Public Prosecutions, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven-made clear in evidence to the Home Affairs Committee his support for 28 days, stating:
	"We welcomed the increase to 28 days and we felt that a period of 14 days was not sufficient. It seems to us that 28 days has been effective and has provided us with powers, supervised by the courts, which have been useful to us as prosecutors in making appropriate charging decisions within that period."
	This review, like Brighton seafront, has two peers-both Lib Dems-and the views of Lord Macdonald are completely in line with the view of Lord Carlile, the independent reviewer of the terrorist legislation, whose work the Home Secretary rightly described yesterday as "excellent". Lord Carlile not only accepted the need to maintain 28 days but said:
	"I expect in the course of time to see cases in which the current maximum of 28 days will be proved inadequate. This will be very rare but inevitably extremely serious."
	The 28 day pre-charge detention for terrorist suspects is a temporary measure which, thanks to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick), who is in his place, has to be renewed each year. The task of the House in considering whether to support a further extension-in this case for six months-was succinctly expressed by the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley)when he spoke for the Conservatives in last year's debate. Perhaps I may just mention that we all look forward to seeing the hon. Gentleman restored to good health. He has many friends across the House who respect and admire him and want to see him back on the Government Benches very quickly. He said last year that the Government must first demonstrate convincingly to Parliament that the security situation is such that 28 days remains indispensable, and secondly, that the legal framework must meet the procedural protections afforded by our common law and by the Human Rights Act. He said, with his customary prescience:
	"I hope this will give an indication of the approach that we want to take, should there be a change of Government before the next renewal."
	I accept that a small minority of Members-it may or may not include the Home Secretary-are convinced that pre-charge detention should be 14 days or less, and I respect that view. It has been consistently argued by several-a minority, but several-Members. The majority of Members, however, will look at the evidence and decide on that basis whether in the year since we last renewed this legislation, the terrorist threat has faded and/or whether this legislation is being abused by the criminal justice system.

Jeremy Corbyn: Is my right hon. Friend aware that no other country in Europe, or indeed North America, that suffers the same kind of concerns as we do has seen fit to go down the road that we have in this country-of having very long periods of detention before charge?

Alan Johnson: I am not aware of that. In fact, the usual argument is that the common-law countries such as Australia, Canada and even the US do not have this system. Europe is the worst place for my hon. Friend to find his examples. Let me cite Norway, for instance. Good old, solid, Scandinavian, liberal Norway has provisions that allow people to be kept in custody-renewed by a High Court judge, who is involved in any detention beyond 14 days-for far longer than 28 days, or even 42 days. That was a helpful intervention, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend.
	I think that the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds succinctly summed up the two issues I mentioned, but there is one further aspect that we have to consider in deciding whether to renew this legislation. It was rightly raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). The issue is whether the very existence of 28-day detention leads to radicalisation in certain communities to the extent that it defeats the objective of reducing the terrorist threat. The Home Office community impact study published in March certainly found examples of UK Muslims having a strong negative perception of counter-terrorism legislation, but concluded that there was insufficient evidence on specific aspects, such as 28 days, to lead to any firm conclusions. I doubt whether anyone in this Chamber thinks that pre-charge detention of 28 rather than 14 days has of itself radicalised anyone to the extent that they would be prepared to engage in terrorist activity.
	While I am dealing with this aspect, I hope the Home Secretary can refute the story in  The Guardian this morning that she has decided to dismantle the Prevent strategy. She told my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears)yesterday, as is recorded in column 802 of  Hansard, that the strategy was being reviewed between the Home Department and the Department for Communities and Local Government. When I read the Home Office draft structural reform plan released yesterday, which is the source of the story in  The Guardian, all I could find was the eminently sensible objective of keeping the "prevent" strand of counter-terrorism separate from the "integration" initiatives of DCLG. I would welcome clarification.

Theresa May: I am happy to give the right hon. Gentleman the clarification he seeks. As set out in the Home Office structural reform plan, we intend to look at the different strands of the Prevent strategy and to ensure that they are properly focused on the right aims. I believe that it is right and appropriate to separate out the part of the Prevent strategy that is about integration from the part about counter-terrorism. One problem with Prevent is that those two aspects have become intertwined in too many people's thinking, which has, sadly, led to some of the Prevent work being rejected by those whom it was intended to help.

Alan Johnson: I am grateful for that clarification, and I completely agree with what the Home Secretary has said about Prevent.
	As the Home Secretary said in her speech, the security threat is, if anything, greater today than it was a year ago. In the year since the last renewal, we have learned more, by means of Operation Overt, about the so-called liquid bomb plot, through the successful prosecution of those involved. We should remember that this involved the planned destruction of seven passenger planes all flying to North America, and is one case in which pre-charge detention beyond 14 days was necessary in respect of six people involved in that plot.
	We also know now that Operation Pathway in Greater Manchester, which was a matter of speculation in the debate this time last year, is now understood to have been a serious and advanced terrorist plot. It was, thankfully, thwarted yet again by the security services. In the past year, two further organisations have been proscribed. The threat level, decided not by Ministers but by the experts in the security agencies, has been changed to "substantial" and then back to the second highest level, "severe", which means that an attack is highly likely. As we meet today to make a decision based on the evidence over the coming year, that is the position in which we find ourselves.
	On Christmas Day, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, a Nigerian citizen who studied in the United Kingdom and was radicalised in Yemen, flew from Lagos via Holland with 80 grams of PETN explosive-which successfully circumvented aviation security-sewn into his underpants, in an attempt to blow up a passenger plane over Detroit. That demonstrated first the continuing ingenuity of our enemies, and secondly the international nature of the threat.
	There has been one other important development over the year: the report of the all-party group of Privy Counsellors, under the chairmanship of Sir John Chilcot, on the crucial issue of intercept evidence. When I was Home Secretary, I briefed the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister separately in their previous roles. They fully understand-as, I know, does the Home Secretary-that the Privy Counsellors found that two of the nine principles that they themselves had established in order to ensure a practical way in which to meet our shared desire to use intercept as evidence were breached during the simulations that they conducted in their course of their work. They are doing further work to see whether they can find a way around the difficulties, but the issue is obviously integral to the whole question of pre-charge detention.
	I ask the Home Secretary to reconsider the response that she gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who asked why intercept evidence was not being considered as part of the review. She rightly said that it was better to consider the issue over time, but that, I believe, is an argument for spending longer on the review. I fail to see how such an important component of the argument about 28 days-rehearsed in every annual debate, and also integral to the consideration of control orders, which is also part of the review-can be separated from the overall review.
	Finally, there is the important question of whether the power is being abused in the legal framework. Some Members argue that we should abandon this measure because it is not used very often, but I would be more concerned if it were used other than sparingly. As the Home Secretary rightly said, it is an exceptional measure, as Lord Carlile has pointed out, the need for it is rare, and the Crown Prosecution Service is well aware that no one should be detained for a moment longer than necessary. There is no evidence that the power has been abused, but Lord Carlile made an important recommendation in his review of Operation Pathway, proposing the granting of conditional bail by a judge for a period up to the 28th day following arrest, which would enable restrictions short of custody to be imposed while the inquiry continued. That strikes me as worthy of consideration, perhaps during the review.
	In my view, the evidence is overwhelming. The statutory instrument should be approved today, and the Government should tread very carefully if the purpose of their review is to arrive at a conclusion consistent with the Liberal Democrat manifesto commitment to reduce the 28-day pre-charge detention period for terrorist suspects regardless of the dangers and the overwhelming evidence.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Nigel Evans: Order. I remind Members that the debate is time-limited. They will have noted how many others wish to take part, and I ask them to exercise some restraint.

David Davis: It is a pleasure to follow both my right hon. and charming Friends, the Home Secretary and the deputy-sorry, shadow-Home Secretary. I am sorry; that was a Freudian slip, but almost a deliberate one.
	Let me begin by wishing you a happy Bastille day, Mr Deputy Speaker. It seems appropriate, given the subject that we are discussing. I shall not recommend that we storm the barricades, but I do intend to divide the House on the motion. I tell Members that now, so that it is clear where we are going. We may not trouble the scorers greatly in the Lobby against the Government, but, given the historic role of the House in defending the liberties of our monarch's subjects, I think it important that a policy which, whatever its rights and wrongs, has so far led to the imprisonment of three innocent people for 28 days is one on which the House should decide explicitly and not on the nod.
	I welcome the Home Secretary's intention to have a six-month review of counter-terrorism policy, but I say to her that, in my view, there is plenty of very clear evidence to demonstrate that 28 days is too many. I will also go through some of the points the shadow Home Secretary raised in his speech. These are not just matters of principle; they are matters of high principle and hard fact.
	The shadow Home Secretary said he recognised that there are concerns that an authoritarian approach to counter-terrorism policy might have the deleterious effect of creating more radicalised Islamists-more potential terrorists-than a more traditional liberal British approach would. That is clearly the case. The hard fact supporting that assertion was given by the head of MI5 in his last speech to the country, when he said that there are 2,000 persons of interest-those are his words-to MI5, which is a 25% increase on the previous year's figure. If the increase continues at that rate, no amount of security will defend us from the consequences of our own actions.
	Radicalisation is, of course, created by more than just authoritarian policies, but such policies do drive it. Anybody who talks to the leaders of Muslim communities up and down the country will know that-they will pick that message up time and again. At the forefront of that trend is the 28-day policy. In relation to home-grown terrorism, detention without charge is the biggest recruiting sergeant for our opponents.

Patrick Mercer: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it was interesting that the shadow Home Secretary did not choose to mention the threat we currently face from republican terrorism coming from the north of Ireland? In view of the fact that we are approaching the internment day anniversary of 8 August, would it not be an extremely powerful statement to reduce the detention period from 28 to 14 days now, rather than to wait until later?

David Davis: My hon. Friend makes a very good case, and he knows Northern Ireland terrorism better than most people in this House. He also knows that internment was one of the best recruiting sergeants for the Provisional IRA and others in that period. So yes, he is right.
	The second hard fact I want to draw on relates to the reasons given to me for 42 and 90 days by John Reid, the predecessor as Home Secretary of both my right hon. Friend the current Secretary of State and my friend the shadow Secretary of State. When John Reid briefed me, as shadow Home Secretary, on his Government's proposals for those periods of detention, the most telling argument he had-to be fair, it was telling-was the prospect of the British agencies being overwhelmed by multiple prospective attacks at the same time. The circumstances he listed were as follows: multiple plots against multiple targets at multiple locations, with not all the information involved being in our control-perhaps some of it was coming from foreign intelligence agencies such as the Pakistani service-and with the plot already starting to be carried out, so that it was necessary to move quickly.
	That was the case the then Home Secretary made, and within a month or so of his briefing me on it we almost had a rehearsal in Operation Overt, the Heathrow plot, to which the shadow Home Secretary referred. It was thought at the time that 10 aircraft had been targeted, although it now turns out that the true number was seven, as well as multiple locations-there were many suspects at the beginning in at least three different locations. There were also concerns about gaining access to some of the houses and other places where evidence was thought to be located, and foreign evidence was involved, too. It was a facsimile of the case John Reid had described.

Kris Hopkins: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although we accept that radicalisation may not be created by one action or one piece of legislation, having pre-charge detention of 28 days compromises civil liberties and that, for some at least, it is one step towards radicalisation-as is the Prevent agenda's national indicator 35, which targeted the Muslim community specifically? We need to make sure that we do not compromise the democratic process and that we engage all communities.

David Davis: My hon. Friend is entirely right. This is the most symbolic of the restrictions of our civil rights, and the one seen by Muslim communities in this country as being targeted on them. It is not intended to be, but that is the way it is seen.
	What actually happened as a result of Operation Overt and the Heathrow plot? As the shadow Home Secretary said, six people were held beyond 14 days; five people were held for 27 or 28 days, and at the end of that process it turned out that three were innocent. I used the word "innocent" when the previous Government were in power, and I was almost shouted down. I mean innocent: no control order, no surveillance, no open file-the police thought they were innocent. When I obtained that information I had with me as my witnesses my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) and the Attorney-General. What was thought was therefore very plain.

Alan Johnson: The right hon. Gentleman is making a very effective case. Can he explain why, in last year's debate on this issue, he voted for the continuation of 28 days? His party abstained but he made the point in that debate that he could not accept 14 days, which he is now advocating, precisely because he knew inside details of Operation Overt and what happened at Heathrow. What changed his mind during the ensuing year?

David Davis: It took us time to get to the bottom of the facts. When I asked the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor as Home Secretary to give us the information I am talking about, we were not given it. I asked for it three times, and my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton was there on at least one or two of those occasions. This is one of the problems with the Home Office: it mouths the words "justice must be seen to be done", but it does not live by them in terms of transparency.
	Let me turn to the remaining two people who were detained, because some further facts have come to light. We were told at the time, "Here is a serious case and we have to go to 27 or 28 days-right to the edge-in order to bring a case against them." However, we pressed the matter and asked when the evidence was obtained to charge those individuals. It was obtained not at 27 or 28 days, but before 14 days-if I remember correctly, on day three and day 12. It was perfectly possible to charge those people before the 14-day limit; now we find, however, that they were charged on day 28. They spent nine months in prison on remand, and even in that time not enough evidence was found to convict them. One of the cases was thrown out by the judge after hearing it-it did not even go to a jury. The other was rejected unanimously by the jury and the individual concerned was exonerated. It was not a soft jury: the same jury convicted three other terrorists in the same trial. So, we had five people, every single one of whom was innocent.
	That is what our policy has done so far and why it is a recruiting sergeant for terrorism. It might not make somebody a terrorist, but it does make the communities concerned less likely to co-operate, less likely to provide information, and less likely to help us to prevent the next terrorist attack. That is why the policy is completely counter-productive.
	Let me turn to hard fact No. 3: the simple list put out by the previous Government and the present Government showing why we need this provision for another six months. We are told how difficult terrorist cases are. What did we do when we were trying to be consensual with previous Government? Both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats agreed with-in fact, we thought up-the idea of acts preparatory to terrorism. We supported the idea of terrorist training being an offence, so we made matters easier in that regard.
	The next argument was, "We have lots of evidence and it might be encrypted-it might be in code." We had to remind the previous Government that when they passed the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, they made it an offence to withhold the encryption key, so if the evidence is in code, belongs to the suspect and he does not provide the key, we have got him for five years anyway. Therefore, that argument went out the window.

Julian Huppert: The right hon. Gentleman will no doubt be aware that in cases involving encrypted data, 28 days, six months or even a year would not necessarily be long enough if there were no access to encryption codes, so such a detention period would not help anyway.

David Davis: My hon. Friend-I suppose he is my hon. Friend-is exactly right. When we heard those arguments, we thought that, with the prospect of the terrorism levels being, as the shadow Home Secretary says, very high, the then Government would have acted quickly. What was worrying was that that RIPA requirement, passed in 2000, was not brought into effect until 2007-two years after the 7/7 bombings. So we did not even give what was already on the statute book as a weapon for the police to use.
	The other thing the then Government said to us was, "If you charge people, you cannot interview them after charge." In 2005, we volunteered to amend that, but the Government did not make that change in the 2006 legislation. They put the provision in the 2008 legislation, which is not even in force yet. If we are serious about taking this on, we should deal with the things that actually attack the problems that we are trying to address. We should not create other problems for ourselves.

William Cash: Has my right hon. Friend taken note of the recent statements by the Lord Chief Justice on such matters? He has been very clear about the need to protect the common law, so the whole issue of habeas corpus, which is an integral part of this, needs to be reinforced. What we need is fair trials, due process and habeas corpus, irrespective of the Human Rights Act 1998.

David Davis: My hon. Friend goes, as usual, right to the core of the issue. This is about habeas corpus; it is about the most fundamental British freedom there is.
	When we have got through all the things I have mentioned, we come to what happens on day 28. I want to be helpful to the police. They might say, "I have somebody in my control who I am sure is a terrorist. I know that from everything I know. I can't quite prove it, but I think I will get the evidence if I have got him for another few days." What do we do then? We actually have something that we do then-it is called the threshold test. The test for charging somebody is allowable-we are allowed to charge them if we are convinced that they are guilty and that we will find the information shortly.
	I am not going to name the individual, but at one point in this process I asked to see the head of counter-terrorism and I talked to him about that. What shocked me was that he did not even understand the threshold test. Again, I cite my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton as a witness, because he was at that same meeting. It is terrifying that our own forces did not know the weapons that they had at their command.
	Right across the board, every piece of evidence to support the case for the provision falls down. The most fundamental one, which has been mentioned, although it was rather mocked by the shadow Home Secretary, is the approach of other countries. None of the problems that I have described as the case in support of 28 days is faced by us alone; every other common law authority has the same problems. Yet America charges in two days and indicts in 10, Canada does that in one day, New Zealand does it in two days and South Africa does it in two days. The nearest arrangement to ours is indicative, because it is Australia, which does it in 12 days. Its 12-day provision was a mistake, but 12 days is what it was. However, as we stand here, its Senate is taking through a law to reduce that to eight days, and the only controversy in Australia is about whether it should be lower, not about whether it should be higher.
	The simple fact is that our policy is built on political machismo, not on effectiveness. What we have to do is recognise what all the other civilised countries in the world are doing and go in the right direction, which is to cut 28 days.

David Winnick: It is unlikely that the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and I agree on anything, except what we are now debating. We certainly see eye to eye on this question and have done for considerable time.
	The figure of 28 days was not picked out of the air in November 2005, when the maximum period was 14 days and 90 days was proposed. It should be remembered that, in July that year, there had been a massacre-there is no other way to describe it-of 52 innocent people, with others seriously injured. A fortnight later, on 21 July 2005, there was another attempted atrocity. That was the situation that faced the House of Commons when we were debating the issue in November that year. Given those circumstances and the fact that the Government-wrongly in my view-wanted to increase the 14 days to 90 days, it is understandable that the House agreed to 28 days.
	As far as I know, no one actually suggested that the 14 days should stay. There was no vote on whether 14 days should remain the status quo. There was more or less agreement-apart from in the Government and among those who supported the Government at the time-that the number of days of pre-charge detention should be doubled from 14 to 28 days. Those were the circumstances in which we debated the issue at the time.

Mark Durkan: The facts of the situation were that the provision on the face of the Bill was for three months' detention but at the key stage of the Bill, two amendments were listed. One changed the limit from three months to 90 days and the other changed it to 28 days. Those were the only two options on offer. When the Government's 90 day amendment was defeated, the 28 day amendment was the only way that anybody had of preventing the limit from staying at three months.

David Winnick: I do not wish to disagree with my hon. Friend, but what I am saying is that there seemed to be general agreement, given the circumstances of the atrocities that occurred in July 2005, that the limit should be increased. However, I do not particularly want to pursue that further because I am now of the view-I agree with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden-that we should return to 14 days, because I do not really believe that there is any justification for extending the order for another six months. I know the views of my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench but, again, I disagree with them.
	We must always bear in mind that for non-terrorist cases the maximum remains, rightly, only four days-96 hours. No Government, fortunately, has suggested that there should be any change to that whatsoever. Where terrorism is concerned, we are going beyond the four days allowed in non-terrorist cases-that is crucial. Until 2003, the maximum for terror suspects was just seven days. It has continued to increase-to seven days, 14 days and then 28 days. Fortunately, all attempts to increase it beyond 28 days-first to 90 days and then to 42 days-were defeated. The 42 days provision was passed by a majority of nine in the House of Commons but rightly rejected by the Lords.
	As the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden has said, there is of course the added provision now that did not exist in 2005-namely, post-charge questioning of terror suspects. That is an important element. The fact that the provision has not come into force is not a reason not to take it into consideration. Only the Home Secretary or the shadow Home Secretary can explain why it has not come into force. If there is a feeling that 14 days is not sufficient and that the terrorist threat remains acute-I could not agree more on the latter-one would have thought that the provision in the Act on post-charge questioning could be brought into force sooner rather than later.
	I am the last person in any way to minimise the continued terrorist threat. I have always worked on the assumption that, as the police said at the time, it was a question of not if but when. The police were proved absolutely right, unfortunately and tragically, by the mass murder in July 2005. Surely no one would now say that the threat does not exist to the same level. I do not know if it is smaller or not, but I do know that if al-Qaeda could carry out the sort of atrocities that it carried out the other day in Uganda, it would do so without the slightest hesitation whatsoever. I mention that to make it absolutely clear that in no way do I argue that the terrorist threat does not exist or is minor-far from it. I am sure that the same applies to other hon. Members.
	As far as the 28-day period is concerned, the Home Secretary has confirmed today that no one has been held for longer than 14 days since July 2007, so the provision is not in use. One argument for voting against it today is that we need not keep it if it is not absolutely essential. The Home Secretary is on record as saying that she would prefer a period of 14 days, so if that is the position, why not agree to a 14-day period today? Protecting the public from terror must be one of the highest priorities for all concerned, particularly the security services, the police and the Government of the day. The job of Parliament is to ensure that funding is provided to ensure that the police and security services can do their jobs. Obviously, that is essential, but we have another responsibility to protect, as far as possible, our traditional liberties. That is one of the most essential jobs of Parliament. It is relatively easy to defend civil liberties when there is no terrorist threat, but the real challenge is when there is such a threat, be it from the most obvious sources, or from dissident republicans or whoever.
	When there is an acute threat, how do we protect the liberties that are so essential to the tradition of our country? The right of an individual not to be held by the police except for a very short time has become very much a part of the tradition of this country. The right of habeas corpus existed even when civil liberties as such did not, so a person could not be held indefinitely. That is why I feel so strongly about this issue and why I believe that it is not necessary, at this time, to extend the 28-day period. To repeat what I said nearly five years ago, every generation of parliamentarians has the responsibility to make sure that the freedoms and the civil liberties that we inherit from our predecessors should be passed on to our successors. That is important and it is why I have always been very wary of giving the police and the security authorities more power than is absolutely essential.
	The Home Secretary said that there was a whipped vote for Labour Members on this issue at the time, and there was, not surprisingly-one would not expect otherwise. However, some of us broke the Whip because we decided that the matter was so important that we should vote against the Government, who were duly defeated. Without being patronising, let me ask Conservative and, perhaps, Liberal Democrat Members something: even if they are whipped today, do they really believe that it is absolutely essential to renew this order? If they do, they will vote with the Government, obviously, but if they do not, I hope that they will do what so many Labour Members did in November 2005.

Dominic Raab: I welcome the forthcoming review of the 28-day limit, the measures that the Home Secretary has already taken on ID cards and stop-and-search powers and the wider review announced yesterday. We have an opportunity with the coalition and, as the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) made clear, we have support across the House to restore our freedoms, while strengthening our security. This is not the zero-sum game depicted by countless, hapless Labour Home Secretaries, but it is crucial that we have an open and honest debate on these matters, and for that we need clear and accurate information.
	I ask the Home Secretary to clarify a slight discrepancy between the answer that I received from her Department on 28 June and the quarterly bulletin of last November. My understanding is that only one person, not two, held for the full 28-day period has ever been convicted of a terrorism offence. I also ask her to provide in table form basic information that her department has previously refused to give. First, I should like to know, year by year, the number of people subjected to control orders, with a breakdown indicating the number of UK citizens and foreign nationals. That is relevant to our ability to deport terrorist suspects whom we cannot prosecute. Secondly, I should like information setting out the number of foreign nationals who have not been deported, broken down by category of reason-whether administrative, legal or based on human rights-so that we better understand why we have been failing to deport so many of them. That information is not impossible to collate, and it is vital for this issue and the wider debate on counter-terrorism.

Theresa May: My hon. Friend asks for a number of figures, but it is only fair to the House that I should pick up the first point that he makes, which relates to a parliamentary question that was answered in the name of the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), who has responsibility for crime and policing. Unfortunately, an inaccurate statistic was included in that answer, and he will correct that in the  Hansard record very shortly. The figures on pre-charge detention are indeed as I indicated in my speech. Eleven individuals have been detained for 14 days or longer. Six individuals have been detained for 27 to 28 days, of whom three were subsequently charged and three released. Of the three who were charged, two were convicted and the case of one was not proceeded with. In the answer that my hon. Friend was given, reference was made to the number of individuals who had been arrested as a result of an operation by Greater Manchester police. It was indicated that two individuals were involved. In fact, only one of the 11 arrested as a result of that operation was involved.

Dominic Raab: I thank the Home Secretary for that clarification. It is refreshing to get clarification from the Home Office so swiftly.
	Twenty-eight days' pre-charge detention was an emergency measure introduced on a temporary basis. We need a clear and convincing justification to retain it, because it undermines the ancient right of habeas corpus, which goes back to Magna Carta. We now know that, in relation to Operation Overt and the Heathrow plot of August 2006-the most challenging counter-terrorism investigation that we have ever faced as a nation-only five suspects were held for the maximum period of 28 days and only two were charged. Contrary to what Ministers said at the time, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) has said, all the evidence relied upon was available well within 14 days. That Operation Overt was used by the last Government to justify proposals for 42 days' detention was deeply irresponsible.
	Since Operation Overt, only one person has been held for longer than 14 days-an isolated case of 19 days' pre-charge detention. Last year, in 2009, no suspects were held in pre-charge detention for longer than 14 days and 70% were dealt with within 48 hours. So the raw facts in the debate are that, in four years, we have not needed longer than 19 days' pre-charge detention, let alone 28 days. If we are judging the necessity of the order on the pressures that the police face during the pre-charge period, the evidence no longer supports a limit beyond 21 days at the very most.
	In truth, those data are not the only relevant information. Briefings by the heads of MI5 in 2006 and 2007 showed a rise in the number of terrorist suspects being monitored by the authorities from 1,600 to 2,000. In 2008, the head of MI5 stated publicly that the volume of late-stage terrorist planning had fallen that year. I am not aware of any more recent assessments from the head of MI5 or the agency more generally. The House will recall that MI5 refused to support the last Government's proposals for 42 days' detention. Ministers stated at the time that it would be inappropriate for MI5 to give a view, yet Tony Blair publicly relied on MI5's support for the increase in the limit in 2005. It cannot be in the interests of the intelligence agencies or the public that MI5 assessments are relied on by Ministers only when it is politically expedient or they want to publicise blood-curdling assessments of the terrorist threat. I ask the Home Secretary to put these arrangements on a more clear and stable footing. Either we should not have such briefings and public statements by MI5, or we should have regular, objective assessments of the domestic terrorist threat based on hard data that avoid any risk or perception of politicisation.
	Paragraph 7 of the explanatory memorandum to the order claims that all the specific grounds cited as reasons for increasing the maximum limit to 28 days in 2006 "remain relevant". It is difficult to accept that sweeping assertion without further information. First, has the challenge of encrypted computers not been eased at all by the enactment in 2007 of a criminal offence of withholding encryption keys? Will the Home Secretary give us data on prosecution and conviction rates under that offence?
	Secondly, will the Home Secretary inform the House of any case in the past two years in which the presence of chemical, biological, radiological or nuclear material has been a direct factor that has prolonged the period of pre-charge detention? Thirdly, will she explain the extent to which the new powers of post-charge questioning that were enacted in 2008 have alleviated the problem of having to intervene early in some terrorist investigations because of the threat to public safely? Alternatively, is it correct, as Liberty and several hon. Members have stated, that the relevant power was not even brought into force by the previous Government, despite all the hubris on that specific point?
	The truth is that gaps remain in the UK counter-terrorism strategy, despite the excellent work and unstinting commitment of our police and intelligence agencies. If it is correct that the terrorist threat has remained constant and at its highest level, it must be worrying that the number of arrests leading to charge under terrorism legislation dropped by more than a fifth last year. The number of guilty pleas in terrorism investigations also fell by a third, while the number of convictions under terrorism legislation halved. Counter-intuitively, there was a conviction rate of 93% in terrorism cases, compared with rates of 31% for conspiracy to murder, 30% for wounding and 38% for rape, and that raises the more basic question of whether, as a matter of policy, we are taking a sufficiently robust approach to the exercise of prosecutorial discretion in terrorism cases-I am talking about not a case-by-case approach, but the overarching strategy on prosecution.
	We need a review of prosecutorial strategy as part of a broader shift away from the previous Government's ineffective authoritarianism and towards an approach that deploys rather than sidesteps the British justice system. That means the greater use, when necessary, of the threshold test to prosecute when evidence is not available but is in the pipeline. It also means lifting the ban on intercept evidence, coupled with a more proactive use of plea bargaining, to increase the number of convictions, as well as the conviction rate, especially in cases involving wider conspiracies or joint criminal enterprise, as it is commonly known. Above all, however, it requires a change in the professional culture of this country's intelligence and law enforcement authorities. That would be in line with the approach in other common law jurisdictions, most notably the US, where pre-charge detention is limited to two days. That is the way in which we can fight terror while defending our historic freedoms in this country.
	I will support the order. I recognise that the Home Secretary needs time to examine these difficult issues further, but in the absence of convincing new evidence, I will be inclined to oppose renewal in six months' time.

William McCrea: Existing counter-terrorism legislation allows the police, in specific circumstances, to arrest individuals who are reasonably suspected of being terrorists. Once arrested, those suspects may be detained without charge for up to 28 days, which allows the police to obtain, preserve, analyse and examine evidence for use in criminal proceedings.
	I must confess that, having listened to the debate, it seems that several hon. Members think that we are still living in a cosy country and a peaceful world, and that they are oblivious to the serious threats that we face. The reality is very different. A significant threat from Islamic terrorism remains, while dissident republican organisations endeavour to increase their capacity for murder and mayhem. I believe that we need measures that reflect the threat against our people.

Geoffrey Cox: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

William McCrea: I have little time and I want to complete the few remarks that I believe need to be put on the record.
	On 7 July 2005, the attack on London's public transport system surely reminded us that there is a vicious and evil terrorist threat against the United Kingdom. In the House the other day, I said that the Government's first responsibility is to protect the law-abiding community, and that every tool must be available to the security services to ensure that that priority is achieved. I believe that the House and the country must come to terms with reality. We must make up our minds what the primary objective really is. Terrorism-no one knows it better than the people of Northern Ireland-is an evil in society, and society must face the evil.
	There is nothing beautiful about terrorism and there is no excuse for terrorism. The idea that somehow 28 days of detention gives terrorists an excuse to attack the people of the United Kingdom is despicable. Terrorism is ugly, unacceptable and despicable, and it must be faced. We in Northern Ireland endured the curse of terrorism for more than 30 years. To be frank with the House, many were happy to appease the terrorists as long as terrorism remained in Northern Ireland and did not come on to the mainland. Some thought that appeasement was a price worth paying. Terrorism destroys the liberty and the freedom of a people. It destroys the freedom and the liberty of the innocent, and I fear that some are about to make the mistake of the past. I do not wish for any person to be detained any longer than is necessary.
	The statistics that the Home Secretary has brought to the House today prove that the legislation has not been abused, and therefore people have not been abused, because the figures tell us that the legislation that has been in place with the 28-day provision has been used both sensitively and responsibly. As I have said, I do not wish anyone to be detained for any longer than necessary, but I would leave it up to the security services to advise on the issue, rather than allow political expedience to meddle with things or to muddy the waters.
	It is interesting to notice that the major party of the coalition Government, when it went to the electorate, did not mention 14 days in its manifesto. It did not mention changing the 28-day period. The only party that did mention it was the Liberal Democrat party, which is not surprising. However, on previous occasions, my right hon. and hon. colleagues received security briefings on this important issue and were guided thereby. Therefore, will the Home Secretary clarify what advice she has received on the current 28-day detention period?
	Over the years, we in Northern Ireland have been inconvenienced. We were frustrated on many occasions and at times we were angry at the use of powers, but whenever our lives were preserved from the terrorists' bombs, we were very thankful. We were very appreciative of what the security forces did to preserve innocent life and the freedom of law-abiding citizens.
	When we talk about what we want to hand on to the next generation, I suggest that the fundamental responsibility of the House is to hand on freedom. We can have a peace at any price, but we cannot have freedom at any price. As I have said, at times we have been angry, but our lives were preserved. We fail to thank the security services for the numerous times they have saved us from disaster, but many times we are quick to condemn them and complain about them when they do not get it completely right. The measure before the House and the 28-day period is appropriate, bearing in mind the terrorist threat that the United Kingdom faces, and I trust that the House will approve the order accordingly.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Under the Standing Order, this debate closes at 14 minutes past 5. I shall call the Home Secretary at nine minutes past 5- [ Interruption. ] Even later than that? I thank the Home Secretary for that, but could Members please restrain themselves?

Julian Huppert: Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall try to be brief.
	Our coalition Government agreed to restore the ancient civil liberties that should be synonymous with our country, and it is to Labour's eternal shame-with a few honourable exceptions, many of whom I am glad to see in their places-that it did so much damage to our country's name and to our civil liberties. I congratulate the Home Secretary, as I did yesterday, on the review, which represents excellent progress, but my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) and I pressed her on 28 days, because that is important. Labour's 90-day efforts, which were resisted, have become one of the party's totemic issues, and I welcome the Home Secretary's aims to reduce the period to 14 days. However, I do not agree that we need to wait six months before we get on with it. We should allow the 28 days to lapse and default to 14 days while the review goes ahead.
	Let us think about the 28-day period. It means 28 days without being told what someone is accused of. Is that proportionate? How does it interact with the concepts of being innocent until proven guilty and habeas corpus? Then, there are the effects on people's lives afterwards, if, as often happens, they turn out to be innocent.
	What about elsewhere? We have talked about the US, where the constitution provides for 48 hours. In Spain, which has faced terrorism, the limit is five days, and in South Africa it is 48 hours, against which I am sure hon. Members campaigned during apartheid. The shadow Home Secretary, whom I am pleased to see in his place, talked about Norway, but I hope that he is aware of how that country, under its Criminal Procedure Act 1981, allows only three days' detention, with an extension after the police have presented the charge. That is a critical difference, because after the charge has been presented we are into a very different space.

Diane Abbott: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of us voted for 28 days only because we saw it as a means of blocking 90 days? There was no consensus on our Benches for 28 days.

Julian Huppert: Indeed I am. I have followed the matter, and the hon. Lady is absolutely correct: 28 days was not the aim, but it was better than 90.
	We have heard about those other countries, so are we saying that our police are worse than theirs? Do we think that our prosecutors are less good and our legal system less effective? I do not think so. We have excellent police and prosecutors, and an excellent legal system, so what makes us so different? What message about our attitude to civil liberties does the measure send not only to our citizens, but to those of other countries, who used to look on us as a beacon of civil liberties but have been sadly let down?

Ian Paisley Jnr: Does the hon. Gentleman not read the monitors, when he walks into this building every morning, that remind him why we are different? The threat level is severe and remains severe, and, although he might wish to play cricket with terrorists and give them a sporting chance on this issue, he is playing Russian roulette with the lives of this nation's citizens.

Julian Huppert: I find it disappointing that the hon. Gentleman takes that line. We are not alone in facing the threat of terrorism. Other countries have faced it and had issues to deal with, and they have done that in much better ways.
	We have alternatives, and other countries clearly manage. We have the threshold test, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) referred. It states that, when there is not enough information, it is possible to proceed with a charge if there are reasonable grounds to think that we will get more evidence, the case is serious and there are grounds to object to bail.

Jim Shannon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Julian Huppert: I ought to save time.
	If that is not the case, then we should not be holding people for 28 days anyway. How can we defend a month?
	We also have the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, which gives powers in extremis, and I know that the Home Secretary and other hon. Members are aware of that.
	We do face a serious situation, and we do need to have the right tools to combat terrorism, but 28-day detention without trial is not the right one. It causes too much collateral damage in its effect on our civil liberties and the message that we send to others who might be considering such issues and those who look up to us from other countries. I urge hon. Members to reject 28 days.

Keith Vaz: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who is the newest member of the Home Affairs Committee. I can recall that of the Committee's 38 reports, 37 were unanimous; the discussion and inquiry that we held on pre-charge detention was the only one on which the Committee divided.
	We have had some very odd couplings, if I may put it like that, today. We had the Front Benchers-the Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary-agreeing, and then we had the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) agreeing. I thought for a moment that the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) was going to vote against the order until the last few seconds, when he gave the Home Secretary the benefit of the doubt.
	This is a very important debate. Of course, the mood is different from that of the last debate, although there is a huge amount of passion. I came into this Chamber with a determination to vote for the order, but I am going to vote against it because I do not think the case has been made. I have been swayed-I know that this is very unusual for a Member of this House-by the speeches that I have heard. I am impressed by the integrity of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North, who has campaigned long and hard on this issue, and by the fact that the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden resigned and fought a by-election on it. I also remember the speech made by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) during the last debate, which was pretty passionate. That is not to dismiss anything that we have heard from others who obviously make very important points.

Jim Shannon: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need 28 days for two reasons: for the ongoing verbal investigations and for the forensic part of the evidence? It is not like the "CSI" programmes on TV. A person is not convicted in 60 minutes-28 days are needed to do that. It helps to remove the more volatile members of the community and to ensure that innocent people are protected.

Keith Vaz: I understand that; it is exactly the point that Ian Blair, now Lord Blair, made to the Select Committee. However, as we have heard today from the Home Secretary, this power has not been used very often. I am sure that she was in the Chamber when the Attorney-General spoke on the issue-it was one of the best speeches that I have ever heard here-and opposed what the last Government were going to do. To be perfectly frank, if one has a power that one does not use, why have it?
	It is important to consider who supported the longer detention period. Only the police came before the Committee and said that they supported it. Ken Macdonald-now Lord Macdonald-who is conducting the review had no reservations when he was Director of Public Prosecutions, but had reservations after he ceased to be DPP. He brought those reservations-

George Howarth: Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Keith Vaz: I will not, because time is very short and I know that lots of people want to speak. I have great admiration for my right hon. Friend-oh, all right, then.

George Howarth: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for reluctantly giving way. Does he recall that when those debates were going on, the claim was never that these powers would be used frequently, but that they might be necessary in very exceptional circumstances?

Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend is right, but we now have the facts and some evidence that we did not have before. The hon. Member for Esher and Walton mentioned the security services. The security services have never said, on or off the record, that they wanted an increase in the detention period. When they met the Select Committee, they were very clear that they were not taking a position on this, and that was echoed in the statements made by the head of MI5. In their view, it was a decision to be made by politicians.
	My next point concerns the impact on the community. I listened to what my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary said, and I have great admiration for him. However, I do not believe that the so-called independent research conducted by officials at the Home Office-or consultants, or whoever did it-truly reflects the views of the community. This matter impacts on the community, and that includes the ethnic minority communities of this country, specifically the Muslim community. There was huge disquiet about these powers being sought by the last Government. I have 10,000 people of the Muslim faith in my constituency; others have more. It was not only the Muslim community but the entire ethnic minority community that was concerned, although they may not have wanted to relate their views to consultants for a research document.
	The Home Secretary is coming before the Select Committee tomorrow morning-I hope she has not forgotten, because we are all turning up and it would be terrible if she were not there-and we will of course probe her about her review. I am sure that she will deal with all the points that we raise in the competent way she has done since becoming Home Secretary. However, in answer to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) she said that she was personally in favour of 14 days. She had me until that point. If she believes that 14 days is the right limit, how can she come before the House and ask for 28? On that point alone, and having been convinced by right hon. and hon. Members, I will vote against the motion.

Aidan Burley: In the light of the time left, you will be delighted to know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that rather like the last Government in their dying days, I have adopted a policy of slash and burn to the speech that I was going to make.
	If the counter-terrorism review states that the limit should be reduced, I and this Government would support that. I would personally welcome a move towards liberty and away from the Big Brother state that grew up under the last Government. Having listened to the debate today, I am afraid the matter is not as simple as saying that the limit should be 90 days, 40 days, 28 days, 14 days or 2 days, as in Australia. Maybe 14 days is the correct amount of time, but what about extreme, complicated or international cases? For me, any decision taken before the review would by definition be arrogant, hasty and uncalled-for.
	Consultations and reviews are not simply box-ticking exercises, although they often had a habit of becoming so under the last Government. They are there for a reason. There are big decisions that need grown-up, thought through answers, and they need decisions in this House that result in laws that do not need to come back to the House constantly to be amended, fixed and adjusted. Earlier, the question was asked, "Why do we not just say 14 days?" For me, that is precisely the point. The Government are trying to search for the best results, not just the best headlines. That is why we do not just say 14 days.
	Sometimes, like good tea, good whisky and good coffee, good laws take a little bit of time to produce. An extra six months is not perfect, but nor is it permanent, and it is purposeful. Within that time, the counter-terrorism review will have published its opinion, taking into account the issues that have been debated this afternoon such as encryption, the complexity of some extreme cases and how to avoid the abuse of powers. I, for one, look forward to voting then for a good, well thought through and well worked out law that is based on what is best for the country and for the people of Britain.

Yasmin Qureshi: Before I came to the House I practised as a criminal practitioner for about 20 years, both prosecuting and defending. I know that some Members, and some other people in the country, are perhaps not convinced by the civil liberties argument on 28-day detention. They ask why we should provide protection to people who want to commit criminal offences. Instead of the civil liberties perspective, I wish to give a practical one-do we, the police or the law enforcement agencies actually need a 28-day limit?
	Members should be aware of the type of evidence that the police gather, especially when monitoring terrorists or people they believe are going to be terrorists. There is intrusive surveillance, with probes in people's homes and cameras outside them. Every single text or e-mail they send is recorded by the intelligence services, who also keep every phone call they make. Are Members really telling me that with all that evidence before them, they still need 28 days to interrogate people in a police station?
	As someone who has dealt with anti-terror cases and seen the evidence that comes in, and even taking away the civil liberties argument, I know as a practitioner that law enforcement agents do not need 28 days to interrogate people. They have all the information and evidence before them. As we know, guidance on the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 allows for various surveillance methods and intrusions to take place.

Jesse Norman: I am a rather rare bird in politics-a Conservative defender of the Human Rights Act 1998, which I regard as the codification of 800 years of British common law.
	Let me briefly draw attention to the previous Government's appalling record, which is perpetuated in the suggestion that there is an intrinsic tension between liberty and security. Security often relies on a clear understanding of the commitment of a Government and a nation to liberty. I massively welcome the emphasis of the new Government and the new Home Secretary on freedom, and the suggestion that the order is a temporary measure is most welcome. My right hon. Friend's personal commitment to 14 days is noted, and the freedom Bill, the crackdown on CCTV and the collection of DNA, and the extension of the Freedom of Information Act are all welcome.
	Today is Bastille day. We should never forget that Edmund Burke rightly predicted that it would be followed by disorder, chaos and terror. It made him deeply unpopular at the time. However, on reflection, we now celebrate the day for recorded rights-not abstract, but recorded rights. They were developed in British common law, and the greatest of them is now in section 5 of the Human Rights Act. It is habeas corpus, as prefigured in article 39 of Magna Carta.
	We must never forget that we are considering suspects-they have not been convicted of any crime. The Home Office has tools at its disposal that it did not have in 2006. It has the ability to question people post-charge, and to draw on new offences, especially training, preparation and dissemination in the context of terrorism.
	I conclude with two questions. First, has thought been given to 21 days as an intermediate period between 14 and 28 days? Are there merits in that? Secondly, has adequate consideration been given to the use of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 as an alternative to 28 days' detention? If we answer those questions, I am sure that we can make progress overall.

Mark Durkan: The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) treated us to a medley of his greatest hits from previous debates, and the shadow Home Secretary performed his cover version of some of his arguments. However, let us remember that the main issues in previous debates were the threshold test, post-charge questioning and intercept evidence. It is important, in the context of the review and any decisions taken in six months if the order is passed today, that the House fully and properly understands those issues.
	We were told earlier that a senior person who dealt with counter-terrorism was not aware of the threshold test. Although it was not mentioned in the Home Secretary's announcement yesterday, I imagine that she is taking six months to conduct a review because she wants to roll the pitch on several issues so that, when the debate takes place, Opposition Front Benchers cannot accuse her of a knee-jerk reaction to the Lib Dem manifesto and she can show that any change has been on the basis of thorough review. I understand the tactic. However, I will vote against the order because I never believed on principle in 28-day detention. Like others, I found myself taken hostage and having to vote for 28 days because it was the only way to stop three months' detention.
	Let us also remember that counter-terrorism measures can be-some have proved to be-counter-productive. Not only internment, but a host of counter-terrorism measures were counter-productive in Northern Ireland. The Democratic Unionist party advocated and cheerled many of them, which ended up assisting the terrorists, partly by alienating the community from the police and making the job of community policing hard and even impossible.

Sammy Wilson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mark Durkan: No, because the Home Secretary needs time to wind up the debate.
	In the previous debate, we were told about the comments of chief constables. I do not know the collective noun for chief constables, but they were all lined up in support of 28 days. I assume that it will take six months to sort out their line and get them on a different course. However, I recall among the good contributions in previous debates about 28-day detention those of the now Attorney-General. He clearly signalled before the election his opposition to 28 days and said that the policy would be reviewed. It is therefore not true that only the Liberals made such a proposal.
	As Opposition Front Benchers discover that they need to change their position on immigration, I appeal to them to wake up to civil liberties.

Dominic Grieve: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I suspect that my distaste for 28 days is shared by many, on both sides of the House. The question is how best to get rid of it and how best to ensure that in doing so, we have covered the contingencies so that we are seen to have acted responsibly. In that way, the line taken by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary deserves support.

Mark Durkan: We hear what the Attorney-General says. He indicates that the motion is about positioning and lining things up.
	Again, whoever is elected Leader of the Opposition to present a new, improved and restored Labour party next year must say that the party has gone back to its better instincts on civil liberties.

Theresa May: In the time available to me, it will not be possible to mention all the speeches made in the debate. However, the debate has in many ways shown the House at its best. People have made thoughtful and serious contributions on the matter in hand. They spoke from the heart and passionately on issues about which they feel deeply.
	I shall simply reiterate what I said in my opening speech. The proposal in the pre-charge detention order is for a temporary measure that will enable us to look again at the 28-day period of pre-charge detention, and at how to reduce it, during the review on counter-terrorism measures.
	The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) challenged me on why I was not going straight away to 14 days, having said that that is my personal preference. The former is correct in thinking that we want to look at the matter in the round alongside other counter-terrorism legislation, and not simply pick it off and deal with it as one issue. I can tell the latter that it is my duty to this House and to the country as a Minister to look at such issues responsibly and to consider all the arguments, and not merely to say that my view should necessarily hold supreme. My views will inform my final decision, but it is right and proper for me to consider all the arguments before I take that decision.

Ian Paisley Jnr: Will the Home Secretary give way on that point?

Theresa May: I am sorry, but I have very little time left-about one minute-so I will not give way. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be able to find me afterwards if he wants to make a speech to me- [ Interruption. ] I can assure him that that was not a comment on the name of Paisley.
	The order is a temporary measure to continue 28 days pre-charge detention for just six months. That enables us to look at pre-charge detention in the counter-terrorism review, and to find a solution that reduces the limit from 28 days while ensuring that the police have the powers they need to keep us safe from those out there who would wish us ill.

Question put.
	 The House divided: Ayes 354, Noes 47.

Question accordingly agreed to.
	 Resolved,
	That the draft Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 24 June, be approved.

European External Action Service

[Relevant document: The Eighteenth Report of the European Scrutiny Committee, Session 2009-10, HC 5-xvii.]

David Lidington: I beg to move,
	That this House takes note of European Document Nos. 8029/10 and 11507/10, draft Council Decisions establishing the organisation and functioning of the European External Action Service; European Document No. 8134/10, draft Regulation on the Financial Regulations for the European External Action Service; and an unnumbered draft Regulation amending Staff Regulations of officials of the European Communities and the conditions of employment of other servants of those Communities; and supports the Government's policy to agree to the Decision establishing the External Action Service at the Foreign Affairs Council in July 2010.
	It was the European Scrutiny Committee which, during the last Parliament, called for a debate on the measures to establish the European External Action Service. I am pleased to have the opportunity to update the House on recent developments, and to give Members on both sides of the House a chance to debate this important issue.
	The EEAS was established by the Lisbon treaty, which came into effect last year. As the House will know, my party did not support either the treaty or the creation of the EEAS, but, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary told the House in June this year, the EEAS is now a fact. The challenge for the Government has been, and remains, to help to shape the service so that it both respects the competence of member states over foreign policy, and at the same time provides for a more cohesive and effective diplomatic voice for the European Union collectively on issues on which the EU, speaking as a whole in support of an agreed common position, carries more clout than member states acting on their own.

Philip Davies: What will happen on the many occasions when the United Kingdom is on a completely different page from the European Union, which seems to be the case more and more frequently? Will the EEAS be making proposals with which this country vehemently disagrees?

David Lidington: If the high representative, Lady Ashton, and the EEAS are to represent a common EU position on an aspect of foreign policy, they can do so only on the basis of a foreign policy mandate that has been approved unanimously by all 27 member states. We have the safeguard that if the United Kingdom wishes to exercise a right of veto and prevent a common position from being reached on a particular aspect of foreign policy, that power remains with us.

Philip Davies: I do not wish to delay the Minister unduly, but I do not understand for the life of me why he has so little faith in British ambassadors' ability to represent this country's opinions, given that presumably the diplomatic services of other countries are perfectly capable of representing those countries' views.

David Lidington: My hon. Friend misunderstands me if he thinks I have any lack of confidence in the capabilities of our network of ambassadors and high commissioners around the world, but it is the Government's judgment that there are areas where it makes sense for the 27 member states of the European Union to speak with one voice if they can. Later in my speech I will give some examples of where I believe United Kingdom national interests have been well served by such a common approach.

Peter Bone: That seems to be a change of policy from when the current Foreign Secretary was on the Opposition Benches, when he said exactly the opposite.

David Lidington: I know that my hon. Friend has adopted a position that is profoundly sceptical not only of the EEAS but of Britain's membership of the European Union and of the EU as a whole, but I must tell him that the key difference between then and now is that the treaty of Lisbon has been ratified by all 27 member states of the EU, and it is therefore now in force as a matter of both European and domestic law. As our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear at the time when ratification was completed, that alters the terms of trade, and we as a party agreed while still in opposition that if we formed a Government we would work within that new basis established by the Lisbon treaty.

Gareth Thomas: I too am a huge respecter of British ambassadors, but the last thing I would want them to do is design development programmes, which was at one stage the suggestion for the role of the EEAS. Negotiations shifted that position, but can the Minister give the House any further information now as to whether there is clarity yet about who will have responsibility for the programming of development spending?

David Lidington: Yes. In the division of duties set out in the decision we are debating this evening, the EEAS and the High Representative will have responsibility for strategic decisions about the priorities of the EU's development programme, but the Development Commissioner and his team within the Commission will remain responsible for the design and implementation of particular development programmes.
	For this to work effectively, there clearly needs to be a meeting of minds between the High Representative and the Development Commissioner. Certainly when I have discussed this matter both with Baroness Ashton and with the Development Commissioner-whom I met in Brussels last week-they were both very confident that the package that has been agreed provided for a sensible division of responsibility, and also that the transfer to the EEAS of a number of staff working in the Commission on development would give the EEAS the expertise in development policy to enable it to take those strategic decisions.
	I have to say to the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), however, that this is one area where the British Government continue to have reservations about the final package. We would have preferred a slightly larger shift of people with development expertise into the EEAS to make certain that it had the required expertise, but the two people most directly responsible for implementing this policy seem to be satisfied with the measure in its current form.

Tobias Ellwood: My hon. Friend mentioned Baroness Ashton, which reminds me that there was a big fanfare when the positions of EU President and Foreign Minister were announced, to the point where the Labour Government at that time said that when these characters visited London they would stop the traffic. On the numerous occasions when either of them has visited London, have there been any congestion issues?

David Lidington: I can assure my hon. Friend that, based on the various conversations I have had with Baroness Ashton in the past few weeks, she has no wish whatever to interfere with the free flow of London traffic. It is a good sign that the High Representative, who is now assuming her office, is someone who is focused on practical action rather than on glitz, glamour, motorcades and red carpets. That is an important difference between her approach and the approach that a possible alternative candidate might have adopted. [Hon. Members: "Name him!"]
	I believe that the political agreement reached between the High Representative and the European Parliament about the structure and accountability of the EEAS provides the safeguards the British Government were seeking, particularly those we sought on the competence of member states over foreign policy. That was no mean achievement, for we need to be clear about one thing. Those who argued that the ratification of Lisbon would somehow automatically bring an end to turf wars between different European institutions, or that it would satisfy the ambitions of those seeking to replace national with supra-national control over foreign policy, were plain wrong in those assumptions.
	The European Parliament demanded to be given a much greater say over the running of the EEAS. In particular, it wanted the right to hold hearings on the appointment of heads of EU delegations; it wanted the appointment of political deputies to the High Representative; and it even sought to make the entire EEAS part of the Commission. The Commission sought for itself an extensive representational role. Others wanted to extend the remit of the EEAS to include the provision of consular services.
	Had these proposals been accepted, they would have added up to a major encroachment by both the European Parliament and the Commission into areas of policy that are, as set out in the treaties, clearly the responsibility of member states. We, working with France and other countries that shared our view that the EEAS should be led by the member states and should not be under the thumb of the European Parliament, successfully resisted those proposals. As a result, the draft decision we are debating this evening is a framework that respects British foreign policy objectives and allows us to establish an external action service that does not replace national diplomatic action, but can complement and add value to it. As article 3.1 of the draft decision says, in terms:
	"The EEAS shall support and work in cooperation with the diplomatic services of the Member States".
	The EEAS does not mean a big new role for the EU in international affairs or shifts in competence; indeed, we will very carefully police any claims or action to the contrary.

James Clappison: My hon. Friend is making a very good case, and I speak as somebody who is not in favour of British withdrawal from the European Union and who recognises, in the words of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, that we are where we are. However, I hope that my hon. Friend is not advancing the case that because we have obtained one or two safeguards in relation to the construction of the EEAS, that invalidates the principled objection that we maintained throughout the treaty of Lisbon proceedings to both the creation of the EEAS and the position of the High Representative. We are just mitigating the damaging consequences, are we not?

David Lidington: I am certainly not resiling from anything that I or my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said when we were speaking from the Opposition Benches. But as my hon. Friend has acknowledged, we are in the legal and constitutional position in which we find ourselves, and in those circumstances I believe it to be the duty of the Government of the United Kingdom to fashion the best way forward we can, in alliance with like-minded member states, to provide the maximum possible safeguards for the freedom of individual European nations to act in pursuit of national interests when it comes to foreign policy.

Neil Parish: Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Iraq war, would it not have been an interesting situation if the High Representative had been in place and had been trying to represent the whole of the European Union at that time, because different countries were taking very different positions? I would like the Minister to spell something out. When the High Representative is going around the world putting a particular slant on a European policy that we oppose completely, how are we going to make sure that we can tell the world, and a particular country, that we have a position different from that of the European Union?

David Lidington: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question, because he brings me to the next passage in my speech. The important point is that the EEAS will have two key functions, the first of which is to speak on behalf of a common position on foreign policy agreed unanimously by the Council and embodied in a mandate given by the Council to the High Representative. So in the case of Iraq, or any comparable foreign policy issue where member states were divided, that unanimity-and hence that mandate-would not exist. Therefore, the High Representative and the EEAS would not be entitled either to speak or to act in the way that my hon. Friend fears.
	The second responsibility of the EEAS is to support the Commission in implementing the external aspects of policies over which the Commission already, under the treaties, has competence, such as international trade. The fact that the High Representative is now, in effect, wearing two hats, whereby she is accountable to the Council for common foreign and security policy decisions but also works as a Commissioner on those matters that are properly the responsibility of the Commission, means that we have the potential for a rather more cohesive international engagement by the EU than has previously been the case. The Government would like this new institutional arrangement to complement our own commitment to an active British foreign policy and help to deliver the diplomatic objectives of the United Kingdom.

Michael Connarty: I welcome the Minister to the Dispatch Box for the first time when I have been in the Chamber. I believe that Labour went through eight Ministers for Europe, so he may have a longer tenure than some of ours; I am sure that he will do his best. Just for the record, when we sent this document for debate before the election there was, as he mentioned, a bid from the European Parliament for three deputies-I believe it calls them secretaries-general-and hearings. Could he explain to the House exactly what the final agreement was on the accountability of the EEAS to the European Parliament? I note that this has all gone through and been rubber-stamped by this Government, without this Parliament having a European Scrutiny Committee to ask them to make themselves accountable to their Parliament. So nobody knows what the Minister agreed when he went to Europe.

David Lidington: I regret the fact that the European Scrutiny Committee in the Commons has not yet been re-established, so there has not been the opportunity for a debate within that Committee before the House as a whole was invited to take a decision. I took responsibility for deciding that the best way forward in the circumstances was to make provision, through the usual channels, for a debate on the Floor of the House, so that all Members had the opportunity to debate this matter before the recess. Had we delayed bringing this forward for debate until the autumn, there would have been at least equal cause for complaint on the part of right hon. and hon. Members.
	The hon. Gentleman asked me about the accountability of the EEAS to the European Parliament. It will be accountable in financial terms to the European Parliament, in the same way as other organisations within the EU are accountable for the way in which they spend European Union money. The High Representative is going to make verbal reports to the European Parliament at regular intervals, but she is not accountable to it in policy terms, nor will it have the right to vet, or hold the equivalent of confirmation hearings on, the appointment of heads of EU delegations to various capitals around the world.

Tobias Ellwood: I am pleased to see my hon. Friend in his place and starting to scrutinise EU legislation in a way that we have not seen before, rather than taking the tick-box approach that we saw from the Labour party. Concerns are expressed on both sides of the House about the duplication in the EU. It still has two Parliament buildings, it has a European Defence Agency that tries to mimic what NATO does, and it is still trying to build a satellite system, Galileo, which duplicates the free global positioning system operated by the United States. Will my hon. Friend ensure that he keeps the EU's ambitions in check, that there is a threshold for how far European countries can come together and work together, and that there is clarity about where that stops and sovereign power takes over?

David Lidington: My hon. Friend invites me to trespass on some policy areas that are properly the responsibility of other Government Departments, but I will not be tempted too far in that direction. The Government are collectively committed to seeking the greatest possible value for money from every part of the European Union organisation and to ensuring that pressure from within European Union institutions to extend competence is resisted. I hope that my hon. Friend will be reassured, too, if I repeat to him now that it is the Government's intention later this year to introduce legislation, as promised in the coalition's programme for government, to require a referendum and a vote by the people of the United Kingdom before any future treaty change that transfers further powers from this House to European institutions.

Michael Connarty: In keeping with what has been called the "tick-box approach"-an approach that won the European Scrutiny Committee the inquisitor of the year award, which has never been won when a Conservative has held the position of Chair-I want to point out that the Minister has not answered the question. The bid from the European Parliament was to have three deputy secretaries-general from each of the political parties in the European Parliament who would substitute for the High Representative. What happened to that bid?

David Lidington: That proposal did not succeed. The position on deputising when the High Representative is absent will depend very much on the area of competence involved in that meeting. The High Representative will have three options. She will be able to appoint a senior member of her official team, once that team is in place, to speak in her place. She will be able to ask a fellow commissioner to represent her when the item being discussed is something that properly under the treaty falls to the competence of the Commission. When it comes to a matter to do with foreign or security policy, she is also free to invite the Foreign Minister of a member state to act on her behalf. I hope that I am not breaking some confidences if I say that she is already making good use of that last option. She has asked the Foreign Minister of Hungary to stand in for her at a forthcoming meeting between the EU and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. We have an example there of member states being seen to be clearly in the driving seat and of powers not simply being ceded automatically to the supranational institutions.

Therese Coffey: I am concerned about value for money. I am surprised that the European Union will be able to achieve the development the EAS on the basis of budget neutrality, unless it has already put in a massive budget. I am also concerned about the duplication that has already been mentioned. Will my hon. Friend assure me that we might even try to get a rebate if we do not need the EAS to do certain things on our behalf, including military planning, military missions and so on?

David Lidington: I was going to say more about the budget a little later in my speech. I hope that my hon. Friend will bear with me if I try to make some progress. I shall respond later to the points that she was making about the budget, and if she wants to intervene again I shall try to make time for her to do so.
	In response to what my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said, I want to give a couple of examples to illustrate that it is possible for the new institutional arrangements to complement an active British foreign policy. The first example concerns political stability in the western Balkans, which is incomplete and fragile. The Government strongly believe that it is in the United Kingdom's interests to have political stability, human rights and the rule of law entrenched in that part of our continent, but that is not a goal that the UK can secure on its own. It is not an exaggeration to say that the situation in the western Balkans is a litmus test of any EU aspiration to take on an effective diplomatic role. We hope that the EAS will make the Balkans one of its highest priorities and that the new institutional arrangements will make it possible to pursue our common objectives with greater cohesion and consistency than was possible before.
	My second example is the threat to maritime trade and the safety of voyagers posed by pirates operating off the coast of Somalia. Already, the different arms of the EU are beginning to work more effectively together: security is a member state and Council responsibility, but development falls to the Commission. The new arrangements maintain the focus on poverty alleviation, but better co-ordination within the single framework of the EAS makes it possible to get development money spent on building new prisons in Kenya to incarcerate pirates, which helps us to achieve our shared security objectives. If the EAS works effectively, the bringing together of the Commission and Council arms of EU external policy under the aegis of the High Representative, instead of their remaining in separate institutions as now, ought to make it possible to achieve a more joined-up policy in tackling other challenges, such as Afghanistan and Kosovo.
	The EAS is not going to be some kind of elixir to cure all diplomatic ills and we have to be realistic about what it can achieve. It will be able to act only where there is a common position, as the High Representative can advocate a foreign policy position only on the basis of a unanimous mandate from the Foreign Ministers of member states. As the example of Iraq, which my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) cited, illustrates, there are no institutional solutions to problems that, at root, require both political will and consistent, shared views.
	The High Representative has made a very good start to her challenging role. She has an impossible job-almost three jobs, in fact: High Representative, British Commissioner in Brussels and chair of the Foreign Affairs Council. She has been criticised for not being at two different ministerial meetings that were held in two different countries at the same time, but that seems more than a little unfair. I am told that she has 400 days of appointments in the year, and she does not yet really have a proper department to help her. The Conservatives wished her well when she embarked on her task and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I are already working closely with her.

William Cash: My hon. Friend has touched on a number of the difficulties for the High Representative in terms of timing and her programme. Does she not have another problem in that some of her functions are based on democratic decision making, such as those in the Council, while others are based on her role in the Commission, which is an undemocratic function, and others still involve a kind of quasi-democracy? Does he acknowledge that that is likely to create a great deal of confusion and uncertainty and that it could cause considerable damage to the clarity that is needed in the very complicated and extremely dangerous world that we now inherit?

David Lidington: Those differences in competence exist already in the structure of European external policy that is being replaced by the EAS. I have been impressed by the High Representative's determination to address seriously the problems that my hon. Friend identifies. He is correct to warn of the risk that the creation of the EAS will be taken by some as an opportunity for competence creep and to establish a more active and ambitious role for supranational European institutions than was envisaged when the EAS was set up or than is provided for in the treaties. The assurance I give him is that the British Government are absolutely determined to ensure that the rights and competences of member states are fully respected, not just by the High Representative, but by every other institution that forms part of the European Union.

Peter Bone: Will my hon. Friend give way?

David Lidington: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I want to make some progress, although I will try to give way again a little later.
	We are content for EU delegations to take on some representational roles, when we want them to do so and have mandated them to do so. Supporting the EU in having enhanced rights in the UN General Assembly is a good example. We want the High Representative to be able to do what the rotating presidency used to do: to speak and act in support of an agreed common position. The Foreign Secretary explained that policy in more detail in a written ministerial statement earlier today. If the General Assembly agrees, the High Representative will have the rights necessary, and no more than the rights necessary, to fulfil the representational role previously carried out by the rotating presidency. That includes the right to speak after the member states have spoken, but not the right to a seat among individual UN members and certainly not the right to vote in the General Assembly. These arrangements will not give EU delegations enhanced rights in United Nations agencies or in other international organisations.
	The Government will judge any further proposal for the EU to act in a representative capacity case by case and on its merits. Critically, we will take a view on whether such a move would help to achieve British interests and whether any proposal would compromise the lead role for member states over foreign policy that is explicitly provided for in the treaty.
	Some bodies, including the Commission and some of the smaller member states, want EU delegations to take a greater role in representing EU positions around the world than we think is either desirable or legally consistent with the treaty. Those ambitions are not secret. For example, the Commission has made it clear that it wants EU delegations to take over responsibility to act not only on policy areas where there is clear EU competence, but on those areas where competence is shared by the EU and member states, even if competence has not been exercised at EU level previously. In our view, such a move would not be acceptable. I have written to the Chairs of the two Scrutiny Committees today to highlight that risk and to make it clear that the Government will be vigilant to defend the interests and treaty rights of not only the United Kingdom but all member states.
	The initial EAS decision was taken by the Council on 26 April, after negotiations between Lady Ashton, the European Parliament and the Council. The European Parliament voted overwhelmingly in favour of the draft decision very recently. Subject to the views of the House and other national Governments, the General Affairs Council of 26 July should be in a position to adopt the decision. Agreement on the accompanying changes to the staff and financial regulations will follow in the autumn, and Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise those later measures.
	I should add a word on the staff. In his speech on 1 July, the Foreign Secretary emphasised the need to increase the number of UK nationals in European institutions. The establishment of a new service gives us an opportunity to promote British officials right from the start, and we have a large number of British diplomats with an interest in moving across to the EAS for part of their career. Staff in the institutions are independent, but we all know that different nationalities bring different perspectives, and we need more people with a British outlook to help to secure the UK interest for the long term. Our starting point in the EAS is good: already, about 8% of the staff of Relex-the Commission directorate that will initially form the bulk of the new service-are British; they are concentrated at the more senior levels and include about a quarter of the directors.

James Morris: On value for money, will my hon. Friend indicate the cost and resource implications of the further staffing of British diplomats in the European Union as a result of setting up the new institution?

David Lidington: Before I respond directly to my hon. Friend, I should add that there will be intense competition for appointments, which will quite rightly be made on merit. However, we are determined to fight for a good share of the senior positions in the EAS because we think that we have first-rate British candidates to put forward.
	We are clear that we do not plan to put aside extra money for the EAS in the long term. We accept that getting the service started and bringing in national secondees to serve alongside those who will transfer to the EAS from existing posts in the external service of the Commission or the Council will involve some additional start-up costs, for which we are planning. The additional cost for the United Kingdom is about £1.1 million, but that is before any calculation of the abatement is taken into account.

James Clappison: I think that the Minister is citing a written answer that he gave me. May I take him away from the EU accounting procedures with which some of us are familiar? The External Action Service will have 136 embassies. It already employs 700 staff-he looks puzzled, but that comes from a written answer that he gave me-and might have thousands more. Without talking about accounting manoeuvres or additional amounts, will he tell us the cost of those 136 embassies and the hundreds, if not thousands, of staff employed by the EAS?

David Lidington: My hon. Friend overlooks the fact that the EAS, as he describes it, will simply be the sum of existing EU missions and activities that already form part of the external work of the Commission and the Council, which are funded from within the existing EU budget. The British Government's objective is to ensure, despite the acknowledged additional start-up costs, that we use the bringing together of disparate external functions to seek savings by eliminating duplication. The EAS budget is due for review in 2013; our objective is to ensure that by that stage we have got rid of what we intend will be a temporary spike due to start-up costs, and managed to achieve savings and better value for money. The EAS should be about the effective delivery of foreign policy, not new and expensive bureaucracy.

Nigel Dodds: The Minister did not answer the question posed by the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) about overall cost. Will he give the House a guarantee that if there is to be any breach of budget neutrality, he and his Government will resist that by vetoing any increase above current expenditure?

David Lidington: We will certainly resist any further increase in current expenditure because we want maximum value for money from the EAS, as we do from every other arm of the European Union. I welcomed Baroness Ashton's pledge on 8 July that she would do everything possible
	"to maximise cost efficiencies, avoid duplication and strengthen financial discipline."
	She said:
	"I want a lean and efficient Service that assures best value for money, staffed by the best and the brightest from across the European Union."
	The Government worked hard to defend the national interest and did all that we could to ensure that the service continued to respect national competences and recognised the central importance of intergovernmentalism in framing the European Union's common foreign policy. Through a robust and pragmatic approach, we have secured a framework for the EAS that respects UK interests, that can strengthen and support national diplomacy, and that will not lead to additional costs in the long term. This is only the start, however, and we now need to work intensively with our European partners to make it a reality. I commend the motion to the House.

Chris Bryant: It is a great delight to follow the Minister for Europe and to be able to welcome the conversion of Aylesbury. I had not realised that Brussels was on the road from Aylesbury to Damascus, but clearly it is. There is more rejoicing in heaven when one sinner repenteth and joineth the pro-European cause than when the 99 stay over there. It is a delight to know that he has hidden his pro-European light under such a nasty bushel for such a long time. I was obviously tempted to think of ways of uniting with his Eurosceptic Back Benchers and finding a way of voting against the motion, but as half the papers have my name all over them and were negotiated by me, it would be a bit opportunistic, even for me, so the Opposition decided against that.
	The Minister has a very fine Europe team in the Foreign Office to support him, and I would like briefly to pay tribute in particular to Kim Darroch, the UK's permanent representative in Brussels, who does an extremely fine job. The Minister also has fine support in his private office among those who work with him on European matters, so I am sure that he will do a very fine job. I think he suggested that Cathy Ashton had abandoned glamour, but I would gently say to him that that is a foul calumny on a very fine woman. However, I am glad that he is very supportive of the work that she is doing.

Tobias Ellwood: Glitz.

Chris Bryant: I think that the Minister said glitz and glamour. Perhaps Cathy will defend herself.
	The important point is that we have before us a slightly difficult process. I fully understand why it has been difficult for the Government to bring things before a European Scrutiny Committee, though I gently say that it would have been better to have had a European Scrutiny Committee in place by now. I gather that we will have a splendid cream-suited Chair, in the shape of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), but it would be good if we had a full Committee and if that were able to get on with its work as fast as possible. As the Minister will know, I was taking this business through the House at a difficult time in the run-up to the general election, and I tried as far as possible to keep the two Committees in the Lords and in the Commons informed about the process of the discussions that were going on at every stage. But the fact that we have now had several months without a European Scrutiny Committee does not enable this House to do the business of scrutinising these and many other decisions better.
	I would just ask the Minister briefly, on the matter of the intergovernmental conference, which was not announced to the House and which was held in the margins of another meeting and agreed to by the Prime Minister without any announcement to the House, if he could at some point provide us with the minutes of that conference. They have not yet been available anywhere, either on EUROPA or in the Library of the House.

Peter Bone: I am interested that the Opposition will not seek to divide the House on this. Has not the shadow Minister just made a very good case of the fact that the House has not scrutinised the business properly? Would not that be a good reason to seek to divide the House?

Chris Bryant: I shall be voting on the substance of the matter, which I wholeheartedly support and, I have to say-this will come as a great disappointment to the hon. Gentleman-in words almost identical to those used by the Minister. No, I do not think it is a good reason to seek to divide the House, but if the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) wishes to do so, obviously he is free so to do .
	The reason we support the European External Action Service, and have for some time now, is that we believe that we are moving, as the Foreign Secretary himself said earlier this year in a speech, into a much more multilateral world, where we cannot just accept that there will be two great powers-the United States of America and China. We have to make sure that our power, both exercised independently ourselves and through the European Union, is used to its best effect. We know that in relation to the emerging economies of China, Russia, India, Mexico and Brazil, it is all the more important the Europe takes a united stance if we are to achieve effective outcomes.
	We also know that the EU's previous foreign relations structure has been grossly inefficient, thus an individual country has a desk officer for the European Council and a desk officer for the European Commission, and, on top of that, two different departments within the Commission might have desk officers. That is clearly a duplication-not the one to which hon. Members referred earlier, but one that we want to see done away with; and that is why we support the EAS.

Chris Heaton-Harris: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chris Bryant: Of course I give way to the honourable former Member of the European Parliament.

Chris Heaton-Harris: Should the EAS come into effect, how hopeful is the hon. Gentleman that, given the duplication that he just outlined, and not the duplication to which others referred, the Commission will actually shed staff?

Chris Bryant: The Commission does not have any choice, because the staff will be automatically moved into the EAS. The same applies to the Council. If each country approves the measure, through their parliamentary processes, the move will happen automatically, so I have confidence in the Commission. There are many areas where I do not have confidence in the Commission shedding staff, and where the hon. Gentleman is right to say that sometimes we have to ensure that it does not encroach on the powers of member states, but this is not one of them.
	When I was Europe Minister, I tried to fight for some important principles. First, it was important to make it absolutely clear that the head of each delegation had full power over the whole delegation, because otherwise, in any individual deputation in any country throughout the world, different elements might compete against each other. Although Europe might have spoken with one voice, because it had established a single mandate, the individual delegation in that country might not. I am glad that we won that argument.
	I am glad, too, that we won the argument to bring the politico-military structures, the civilian planning conduct and capability element, the crisis management and planning directorate and the EU military staff inside the EAS, because it would simply have been to duplicate and make the system more complex if we had left them outside.
	I shall not take up much time, because I want to ensure that there is more opportunity for other Members to participate, but I must note two areas where, to be honest, I felt that I had to handbag the High Representative. Indeed, there were sharp words at April's General Affairs and External Relations Council. First, I do not believe that the EAS should set up consular services for every country in the European Union, and I was determined to ensure that the text that came out of April's Council made that absolutely and abundantly clear. I confess that the text that we ended up with-I am sure that all hon. Members will have read it-is slightly complex. Indeed, article 5(10) states that the Union delegation shall, acting in accordance with article 35 third sub-paragraph of the TEU, and upon request of member states, support the member states in their diplomatic relations and in their role of providing consular protection to union citizens in third countries on a resource-neutral basis.
	Two elements of that are vital, but they sound misguided. First, "on a resource-neutral basis", means that no additional money should go into the EAS to provide consular services on behalf of other countries. Secondly, the reference to article 35 of the Maastricht Treaty on European Union, as I am sure the Minister knows, means that the circumstances in which the EAS can provide consular services are very closely constrained. The Maastricht treaty-under the provisions that John Major introduced, incidentally-makes it clear that where an individual citizen of any EU member state is in a third country and their member state has no representation, other member states can provide support. That happens fairly regularly. In countries where Britain has no representation, sometimes a British citizen will be supported by other EU members. It is also true that the services of other countries are provided to us. For instance, in Laos, where we have no representation, the Australians provide consular protection.
	In our discussions leading up to April's Council meeting, I thought it very important to ensure that countries such as Estonia and Latvia, which would dearly love the EU to provide consular services and remove the power of member states to provide them throughout the world, should not see the measure as a great cash cow. While many in the room argued forcefully that we should be moving towards European consular services, I said that we would use the British veto if that proposal came forward. That is why we have the document that is now before us.
	The next issue is budget neutrality. As I said, there has been considerable duplication in the system in the years thus far, whereby there are desk officers for the same country from different elements of the structure of the European Union, and that has been counter-productive. I am confident, with Cathy at the helm, that there will be a strong insistence on ensuring that those duplications do not survive, and that there is therefore no reason why the EAS should cost us more in the long term.
	I note the Minister's optimism when he says that in the short term this will cost us only £1.1 million more.

David Lidington: I am sorry-the hon. Gentleman misheard me. I said that there would be about £1.1 million, not £1.1 billion, of additional costs for the United Kingdom.

Chris Bryant: I am sorry, but the Minister misheard me, because I said "million" as well. It is great to be able to be entirely of one mind.
	However, my anxiety is more about the Minister's optimism than his numeracy. Pressures will inevitably come from other member states, many of which are going through the same process of retrenchment in their budgets and will find that that directly affects their foreign offices. When I was in the post that he now holds, I spoke to three of my counterparts, who talked about 50% or 60% cuts in their foreign offices. In many of those countries, there may well be a political pressure towards the European Union carrying out more of their foreign services, and he will rightly want to be very cautious about that. Throughout the whole process of the treaty going through and the setting up of the EAS, it was our clear intention that we, Britain, should be able to fight our corner, but we also wanted the whole European Union in our corner. I very much hope that that is what this measure will achieve.
	My final point relates to British staff in the EAS. Like the Minister, I hope that many diplomats in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will want to work there. He said that many more suddenly want to go and work there; I do not know whether that is because they do not like working with him or because they are fearful of what is going to happen in the FCO. On a serious note, one of the complexities in trying to get British staff to work in any of the institutions of the European Union is that they often cannot see a path back. It is not only a question of whether British people speak foreign languages, but of whether they can see a career that takes them to Brussels and brings them back thereafter. I hope that at some point the Minister will be able to enlighten the House further on those matters.
	I wholeheartedly support the motion in the name of the Minister and congratulate on him on his volte-face.

Richard Ottaway: Like other Conservative Members, I am sceptical about the Lisbon treaty, but we are where are. We have the European External Action Service, and it is in Britain's interest that it at least works.
	The Select Committee on Foreign Affairs has taken a close interest in the EAS, and I welcome this debate. It hardly helps that the negotiations have been taking place in Brussels when we have not had a European Scrutiny Committee. However, the Foreign Affairs Committee is grateful that the Government and their predecessors have co-operated with it in providing the information that it needed and, in that spirit, I hope that they continue to do so.
	We are able to consider today's documents in advance of the Council formally giving its approval only because High Representative Ashton has spent the past three months negotiating with the European Parliament. I have to confess that having had a look at the documents, I am sceptical about whether the changes secured by the European Parliament amount to any major alteration to the likely functioning of the EAS. The Parliament largely won confirmation on a number of points that were either implied or explicitly set out in the Lisbon treaty or in the Swedish presidency report on the EAS adopted by the European Council last October. I note that the explanatory memorandum to the revised draft Council decision states that it "respects the essentials" of the proposals on which the Council reached political agreement in April. Under the circumstances, I congratulate the Government on resisting a number of demands regarding the EAS that would have been very unhelpful from a British point of view.

Chris Bryant: Actually, some of the most significant changes happened some time before. In particular, the battle relating to consular services was held between October and April.

Richard Ottaway: That is my point, and I do not believe that the subsequent demands have changed things at all.
	The negotiations of the past few months have highlighted the continued existence of widely diverging views about how the EU should make external policy, and the scale of the change of mindset that will be required in some quarters to focus on the generation of a more seamless external policy for the Union. Whether or not one believes that the EAS is workable or necessary in the first place, the manner in which it has been achieved hardly gives rise to optimism that there can be effective implementation of EU policy.
	My hon. Friends have set out emotive views about the EU, and on behalf of the FAC I shall simply concentrate on the nuts and bolts of the system and pose a few questions to the Minister. The assessment of the deal between the Council and the European Parliament, which is now before us, may depend very much on the legal status of the additional declarations and statements that Baroness Ashton has now agreed to make. The explanatory memorandum refers to those as "accompanying" the decision and as
	"forming part of the overall political agreement".
	I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify the legal status of those documents and the degree to which they are relied on.
	I would welcome reassurance from the Minister that the deal now before us does not give the Commission or the European Parliament any greater power over the budget for the common foreign and security policy. With the abandonment of the Western European Union by the previous Government, there is now a bit of a lacuna in that area of oversight.
	The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) raised the way in which the High Representative delegates her responsibilities. The Lisbon treaty did not create a wholly new, specially fashioned position but was intended to encourage greater coherence in the EU's external policies simply by giving three different jobs to the same person. That raises the question of who is to deputise for the High Representative when she cannot be in several places at once. The Minister responded to that point, but some further clarification would be welcome. How is that done? Where is the procedure set out and what is the authority for it? Who is the Foreign Minister of Hungary speaking for? I know that he is speaking for the High Representative, but where does he get his brief and to whom does he report?
	The new EU delegations to third countries and international organisations are to be upgraded from the existing European Commission delegations. The increased role of those delegations seems to me potentially one of the most significant changes resulting from the Lisbon treaty, both for the EU and for national foreign ministries. Does the Foreign Office see any need to issue specific guidance to UK posts about how they should work with the new EU delegations, particularly as regards the sharing of information and intelligence?

Tobias Ellwood: Has my hon. Friend had the opportunity to meet Ambassador Ušackas, the new EU representative in Afghanistan? He passed through London and is now in Kabul, but his remit and how it sits with United Nations directives and those of the international security assistance force is unclear. We have signed up to the ISAF mission, but we are also part of the EU and are therefore expected to form part of the ambassador's mission. There is a dichotomy in interests.

Richard Ottaway: I met the ambassador. For the past month, I have formed a Committee of one on foreign affairs, and I ended up inviting Members to meet him. He was fairly clear about his brief, but my hon. Friend makes a strong point.
	It has been suggested in some quarters that the Foreign Office may close some embassies where the EU has a stronger presence post-Lisbon. The previous permanent under-secretary at the Foreign Office, Sir Peter Ricketts, suggested to the Foreign Affairs Committee and the Public Accounts Committee in the previous Parliament that, if anything, the arrival of the EU delegations might help the FCO's efforts to sustain and perhaps even expand its overseas network. Sir Peter also said that the Foreign Office might be able to sustain or open small overseas posts by locating them in EU delegation buildings when suitable office space might otherwise be difficult to find. I should be grateful if the Minister clarified that.
	On staffing, the previous Government told the FAC that there would be 25 secondees to the EAS when it was up and running. However, in a reply to a recent parliamentary question, the figure was abandoned, and the response was slightly ambiguous. I should be grateful to the Minister for guidance on that. Have we retained the secondments that we have? Are vacancies that arise open to national civil servants? Does the UK have any potential secondees in those competitions?
	In short, we are where are and we hope that the EAS contributes significantly to making the EU a more effective vehicle in the world today. The documents before us suggest that the Government have succeeded in securing some key points, but many questions remain to be answered.

Nigel Dodds: I welcome the Minister to his position. It is the first time that I have spoken in a debate that he has led as Minister for Europe. Of course, I remember him fondly from his days as shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The experience gained there will doubtless stand him in good stead for the intricacies and delicacies of European diplomacy. We wish him well.
	However, the debate is about something that the British people neither want nor need. If the broad mass of the public looked in on the debate, they would ask, "What on earth is this all about?" At a time of massive constraint in the public expenditure system, with public services under threat, Departments told that they might face cuts of between 25% and 40%, and our diplomatic corps told that it, too, might face huge cutbacks, we are holding a debate that is based on a treaty that nobody wanted and on which we were denied a referendum.
	The hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) and the Minister used the expression, "We are where we are." That is true, but we do not need to be where we are. I have great sympathy for the Minister because, while the shadow Minister teased him about a volte-face, the road to Damascus and so on, he was clearly uncomfortable about some of the things that he had to say. He said that the motion was about mitigating the damage, and I was worried when he seemed to get carried away with some enthusiasm for the new service. However, if he and his party had stuck to their pledge to offer the people of the United Kingdom a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, it would not have come into force and we would not be discussing this motion.
	I do not want to rehearse the argument over the referendum on the Lisbon treaty except to say that the excellent private Member's Bill on it unfortunately did not make progress. The fact is that it would have been possible for the House to grant the British people a referendum even after ratification. At the end of the day, the House is sovereign, and the British people ultimately ought to have the right to decide whether we should have all those institutions created out of Lisbon.

Tobias Ellwood: The right hon. Gentleman has been a Member of this House for a number of years, and he is aware that the Lisbon treaty has been signed. Having a referendum now would be a bit like asking patients in a new hospital what colour they want the foundation stone to be. It is too late, hence the phrase, "We are where we are." We must mend what has been put together.

Nigel Dodds: I have heard that theory, and no doubt the hon. Gentleman heard some of his hon. Friends debunk it at the time. Of course it is possible for the United Kingdom to decide that it no longer wishes to be part of the consequences of the ratification of the Lisbon treaty-that option is open to the House, Parliament and the British people. If what he says means that for ever and a day we have given up the right to decide matters such as membership of the European Union, what treaties we are signed up to and what institutions we belong to, it is a sad day for democracy in the House. The British people who supported the Conservative leader when he offered a cast-iron guarantee on a referendum did not expect that that promise and pledge would be ditched so quickly and so comprehensively.
	I venture to say that that is one reason why there is a disconnect between the British public at large and their Parliament. The people do not trust politicians-such trust is essential-because the promises that they hear politicians make are cast aside when it suits the politicians, not when it suits them. People expect promises to be honoured. They overwhelmingly believe that we should not have signed up to the Lisbon treaty and that a European diplomatic corps should not be created, and they expect their views to be heard. Unfortunately, there is a cosy consensus between the Front Benchers of both major parties, and indeed the Liberal Democrats, so people will be denied their say and a referendum.

Chris Bryant: I hate to leap to the defence of the Conservative Government, but it would surely not affect the rest of the European Union if Britain voted against the Lisbon treaty in a referendum, because the EU would continue to operate under the treaty. In all honesty, the only referendum one could now have is on whether to leave or stay in the EU.

Nigel Dodds: No doubt some hon. Members think that that is a pretty good idea. The hon. Gentleman speaks of referendums, but he knows full well that he and the previous Government pledged a referendum on the European constitution to the British people. There is talk of the Minister making a volte-face, but the decision not to grant that referendum was the biggest volte-face in recent history. Of course, a distinction between the Lisbon treaty and the original proposal for a European constitution was made, but much of it was spurious.
	The fact that we are today debating the creation of the European diplomatic service, with all that that entails, proves the point that many of us made about the Lisbon treaty, which is that the treaty is yet another significant development in the creation of a European superstate-the Minister alluded to that and to the reasons why he and his colleagues opposed the measure at the time. He may argue that the High Representative is unable to advance a position in the absence of a common position adopted by the Council of Ministers, but that means that on many critical issues around the world the High Representative and that vast diplomatic superstructure will be sitting on their hands.

Philip Davies: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the irony of today's proceedings? Earlier we were invited to support reductions in the police grant because there is supposedly not enough public money to go around, but we are now invited to indulge the largesse of the European Union. Does he agree that if we are all in this together and if we are living in the age of austerity, we should make that abundantly clear to the EU?

Nigel Dodds: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I am just coming on to the budget, which is critically important. He is right to ask how people in the Community will feel about this debate and the amount of expenditure attached to it, at a time when we are debating the police grant and other matters.
	We heard the Minister talk about the extra expenditure amounting to some £1.1 million in start-up costs, which he confirmed in answer to a question from the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), but the cost of the EEAS is expected to reach some €900 million when fully operational. Some reports in the European Parliament suggest that it will cost up to £5 billion a year to run when fully up and running. A leading German MEP, a member of Chancellor Merkel's party and who sits on the budget committee, was quoted in  The Sunday Times on 25 April as saying:
	"You can only believe the claims that the service will be budget neutral if you believe in Santa Claus."
	A senior official in Baroness Ashton's service said that nobody took seriously the claim that the service would remain budget neutral and went on:
	"That's simply not realistic, not even in the mid-term, but the notion has to be maintained for reasons of political acceptability."
	The irony will not be lost on UK taxpayers that this Government, who are asking Departments to demonstrate where cuts of up to 40% can be made, now endorse a service that will cost millions of pounds and that we neither want nor need. Those of us who opposed Lisbon and the creation of the EEAS back in 2008 still oppose it, and I hope that we will be given the opportunity to do so in the Lobby tonight.

William Cash: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister for Europe on his appointment. I am sure that we will be having many useful discussions, dialogues and even cross-examinations as time goes on.
	I regard this whole decision as a triumph of European aspirations and European parliamentary ambitions over reality. I am deeply worried about the manner in which this game of multidimensional chess will play out, and I have already indicated to my hon. Friend the Minister my concern about the overlapping functions and the contradictions that will emerge between the necessity of maintaining our bilateral relations with other countries and the extremely ambitious proposals in this decision on global reach. It is phenomenal to imagine an external action service on this scale that would in any way be regarded as not interfering with our domestic diplomatic service.
	I sense that my hon. Friend the Minister and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary know this. We debated the Lisbon treaty together, we were united and we had a remarkable rapprochement during those debates-contrary to the debates over the Maastricht treaty, when I stood in this very spot and had much to say about what I thought would happen. Many people might think that some of the things I suggested would happen have done so, and this is one of them.
	I treat the whole issue of the external action service with great concern for the reasons that I have given. It will induce a recipe for confusion-

Dennis Skinner: Like IPSA.

William Cash: It is not as confusing as that, but it is getting there.

Dennis Skinner: Speaking as someone who voted against Nice, Maastricht, Lisbon and God knows what else, I may have made a slight error on the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. On reflection, I think IPSA should run the EEAS; that will cock it up.

William Cash: rose-

Mr Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman replies to that witty intervention, I will remind him of what I am sure he already knows-that the Minister has a right of reply and will need to be called at 6.52 pm. It is conceivable that other Members might also wish to contribute.

William Cash: Having spoken for only two minutes, I can guarantee that I will not speak for more than five at most. As for intervention of a few moments ago, I think the Court of Auditors might have something to say about the matters that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) raised. After all, it has not signed off its accounts for the last 15 years.
	I am deeply concerned about this whole operation. I add that in the report mentioned in the documents before us, the European Scrutiny Committee said that this important proposal is
	"likely to be the most significant change in the conduct of British foreign policy for many years",
	which is why a debate on the Floor of the House was, exceptionally, recommended. That is the truth and the reality. I am deeply concerned that in being asked to consider the functions of the Foreign Office under this decision, there is a huge issue to do with the impact this new global diplomatic service will have on Britain's ability to promote her own bilateral interests.
	This is not a small matter. The question is how we are going to be able to maintain our own bilateral interests if we are suffocated by the decisions that are taken. Anybody who reads these documents in detail-I do not have time to go into that detail today-will appreciate that there is a very severe danger to the continuation of our bilateral interests, however hard my hon. Friend the Minister and the Foreign Secretary will work, as I know they will. Given the depth, the range and the landscape of this monumental creation of a new foreign service on a European scale, it is difficult to see how our bilateral interests can be preserved.
	In conclusion, there is also the declaration on political accountability. I would be grateful if the Minister told us some of his thoughts on that. He said in evidence to the House of Lords Select Committee last week that he hoped the decision would
	"end up providing a more coherent and effective platform for the delivery of the EU's engagement with the outside world."
	For my part, I hope that our own foreign policy will be conducted in a manner that will properly reflect the interests of this country. I am happy to co-operate with other countries throughout Europe-and, indeed, anywhere else in the world-because we have a responsibility to do so, but I am deeply worried at the way this entire legal framework is liable to subsume our own ability to ensure our own national interests.
	I regard this as a mosaic, as it were, within a labyrinth, and I fear that there will be a confusion of control and command in military matters, in relation to Kosovo and our relations with Iran, for example. We need to be extremely cautious about giving this more than a very tepid welcome.

Michael Connarty: I am sensitive about intruding on private grief, but I am witnessing the acting out of a scenario in which a Minister who takes a very positive approach to issues relating to the European Union is surrounded by a large number of Eurosceptic Members of Parliament who had previously imagined that they were serving under a Eurosceptic Government. The words "a cosy consensus" have been used, but I am not sure that what is happening. I see it more as the sweet breeze of EU realism blowing through the Conservative Government.
	The fact is that the Lisbon treaty is in force, and will not be overturned. In a speech that I made on the issue, I described the treaty as a "tipping point" in the balance of power between Brussels and the national Parliaments. I hope that there will be a rearrangement of power, and that a triangulation of forces will eventually return to us more power than the Commission, and indeed the European Parliament, want us to have.
	For me, the key issue is the scope of the European External Action Service. Paragraph 36 of the European Scrutiny Committee's 18th report of 2009-10, published before the election, stated:
	"Given the importance of this proposal, which-the Minister's assurances on consular protection notwithstanding"-
	the then Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), is sitting in front of me now-
	"is nonetheless likely to be the most significant change in the conduct of British foreign policy for many years, we consider that this debate should be on the Floor of the House."
	I still believe that that is the case.
	We have encountered the question of accountability. While an election was taking place in this country, the European Parliament was using its powers under the Lisbon treaty to advance a case relating to the question of the three deputy secretaries who would substitute for the High Representative. That case was rejected, but in fact the European Parliament achieved a great deal more. There was a second Council decision following the one on the matter that was eventually referred to the Council on 9 July.
	The European Parliament saw an opportunity to make a bold opening gambit in relation to those who would be substitutes and guardians, or protectors, of the High Representative. It used the fact that staffing regulations, finance regulations and the EEAS budget would be subject to the European Parliament's powers of co-decision to advance a strong argument that it should be consulted on matters such as the common foreign and security policy. That, of course, will be subject to unanimous agreement in the Council, but the Parliament has inserted itself into the process to great effect. The Lisbon treaty gave it the opportunity to enhance its ability to influence the politics and policy of a major institution.
	The second decision, as the Minister said, was that the High Representative would
	"seek the views of the European Parliament on the main aspects and basic choices of policy".
	The Council decided that the European Parliament would have to be consulted on policies such as the common security and defence policy, and on questions relating to the basic organisation of the EEAS central administration and political accountability. It is clear that we have not only had an election, but failed to establish any scrutiny arrangements in this Parliament.
	The European Parliament clearly views that agreement as meaning that it will have a significantly greater influence on EU foreign policy in the future. That is where we have arrived after the stages through which we have gone. The Parliament has gained considerable ground. It may not have made all the gains that it demanded, but I do not think that it wanted them anyway. It wanted to make the service accountable to it.
	We now need assurances from the Government that they will defend not just the common foreign and security policy and the common security and defence policy, but the right of this Parliament to scrutinise what they do and hold them to account when they go to the Council. That might serve as some small protection against a European Parliament that might otherwise take complete control of this policy and this service in the future.

Tobias Ellwood: It is a pleasure to contribute to this important debate. It is important to understand what we are creating. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies)-who I see has gained some new recruits to support him on the Back Benches-obviously takes a different view from others on how we should approach the Lisbon treaty.
	The phrase "We are where we are" has been used a number of times in the debate. If we had a blank sheet of paper, I am sure that we would not create the Lisbon treaty in its current form, but I was not in favour of the dome, either- I thought it was unpopular and a wrong concept-but it was built, and then we decided to change it and make it actually work. If we choose to opt out of the EU, as some colleagues on both the Government and Opposition Benches might wish, we will certainly change our relationship with the EU and Europe from one perspective, but we will also alienate many countries, and we will then be unable to influence their approach to the EU.

Andrew Percy: The issue, however, is that many of us have a problem with the creation of this external service. We have not got into a discussion about whether we should be a member state of the EU. The fact is that many of us have grave concerns about this measure, and that is what we have been talking about today.

Tobias Ellwood: I do not disagree with my hon. Friend. The point I am stressing, however, is that, as has been said, we could be in a stronger position if we were to move British personnel into the organisation and change it into something actually worth having-and that is what I would like.
	I do, however, have some grave concerns about EU spending at present. A great example of that is the Galileo satellite system. It has cost about £4 billion so far, and the Foreign Office budget is, I understand, about £2 billion, so there would be some huge savings straight away if we were to get rid of that system. I also mentioned in an intervention the concerns we have in respect of NATO and the European Defence Agency. They have not been answered today, and I would be grateful for the opportunity to speak to my hon. Friend the Minister about the clear overlap that there is in respect of those two organisations. When I was serving in the armed forces in Bosnia, the EU was trying to create something of a European army, and that is wrong. The cornerstone of our defence in Europe is NATO, and we should not try to duplicate it.
	I intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, about Ambassador Ušackas who has now been sent to Afghanistan to represent the European Union. I have a question: if the EU starts sending diktats or directives on how Afghanistan should be approached, that might overlap with the direction we are receiving as a member of the international security assistance force, and-

Mr Speaker: Order. The House is grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, which can now be left dangling in the air-although the Minister might seek to respond to it.

David Lidington: I thank all Members who have taken part in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) pressed me about the overall cost of the European External Action Service. The problem with putting a precise figure on that is that we are talking about an organisation to be created by bringing together activities that are funded by a number of budget heads within the existing EU set-up, and in some cases parts of expenditure under one budget head are transferring to the EEAS and others are not. The best estimate that we have at present is that about £400 million of expenditure will be required to fund the activities transferred from the Council and the Commission into the new EEAS. The much higher figure cited by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) can come about only if we assume that the whole of development expenditure is transferred, and that is not going to happen. I will write to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere once we have more detailed estimates as the budgetary process continues in Brussels.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) asked a number of specific questions. Declarations are not legally binding. They are statements that provide a political context for a Council decision and how it will operate as it is taken forward. In response to his question about deputies, where a deputy-a Foreign Minister or anybody else-speaks on a matter covered by common foreign and security policy, that deputy must speak in support of a common position which has been agreed unanimously by all member states.
	My hon. Friend also asked about the role of the EU special representative in Afghanistan. He is twin-hatted already, as both the special representative and the head of the European Commission offices in Afghanistan. He will, of course, work closely with other international organisations and representatives and will seek to complement, not duplicate, the work of, for example, ISAF. My hon. Friend further asked about whether we were committed to sending 25 British secondees to the EEAS. That was an initial figure and we are keeping it under review. However, we have a number of British candidates for the first wave of EEAS posts, and many more are interested in future vacancies.
	My hon. Friend asked about the instructions and advice that the FCO might send to our own British posts abroad. We will be sending them instructions and advice, and those instructions will be that they should co-operate with European Union missions to secure British foreign policy objectives and to influence the work of those EU delegations, in order to give priority to matters on which there is a common position-for example, the need for sanctions against the Iranian nuclear programme-that will secure both European and United Kingdom interests at the same time. We are also asking our posts to be extremely vigilant about any evidence of competence creep at the behest of the Commission or of other institutions or member states, and to report back swiftly to the Foreign Office if there is evidence of that happening. I can tell my hon. Friend that I have already come across examples of such reports to us, and we do take appropriate action and make representations to protect the interest of member states.
	I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) that we are not in the business of trying to supplant or in any way to weaken the ability of British diplomats and Ministers to stand up strongly for the national interests of the United Kingdom. However, we are also acknowledging that there are on occasion opportunities to promote and enhance British interests in a way that also suits the common interests of the 27 member states-
	 One and a half hours having elapsed since the commencement of proceedings on the motion, the Speaker put the Question (Standing Order No. 16(1)).

The House divided: Ayes 321, Noes 12.

Question accordingly agreed to.
	 Resolved,
	That this House takes note of European Document Nos. 8029/10 and 11507/10, draft Council Decisions establishing the organisation and functioning of the European External Action Service; European Document No. 8134/10, draft Regulation on the Financial Regulations for the European External Action Service; and an unnumbered draft Regulation amending Staff Regulations of officials of the European Communities and the conditions of employment of other servants of those Communities; and supports the Government's policy to agree to the Decision establishing the External Action Service at the Foreign Affairs Council in July 2010.

Business without Debate
	 — 
	dELEGATED lEGISLATION

Lindsay Hoyle: With the permission of the House, we shall take motions 5 and 6 together.
	 Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Pensions

That the draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Levies) (Amendment) Regulations 2010, which were laid before this House on 2 March 2010, in the previous Parliament, be approved.
	That the draft Pensions Regulator (Contribution Notices) (Sum Specified following Transfer) Regulations 2010, which were laid before this House on 1 March 2010, in the previous Parliament, be approved. -(Mr Newmark.)
	 Question agreed to.

DELEGATED LEGISLATION (COMMITTEES)

Motion made,
	That the Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to the Electoral Commission shall be treated as if it related to an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of which notice of a motion has been given that the instrument be approved. -(Mr Newmark.)

Hon. Members: Object.

Business of the House

Motion made,
	That, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the intervals between stages of Bills brought in upon Ways and Means Resolutions, more than one stage of the Finance Bill may be taken at any sitting of the House. -(Mr Newmark.)

Hon. Members: Object.

RETAINED FIREFIGHTERS

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. -(Mr Newmark.)

Dan Byles: I am grateful for the opportunity to talk about this important subject and I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to give up some of my time at the end of my speech to three of my hon. Friends who care deeply about this subject and how it impacts on their constituents. I would like to make it clear that, as the debate is about retained firefighters, I will limit my comments to that part of the fire and rescue services, but that should not be seen as a snub to our brave and dedicated whole-time firefighters. I believe that the retained system complements the whole-time system and that each needs the other, but a debate on whole-time firefighters is for another occasion. Retained firefighters are sometimes known as on-call firefighters or the retained duty system, which I may refer to as the RDS.
	In many ways, this debate is about much more than the role of retained firefighters. It is about communities, volunteering and service to family, neighbourhoods and country. Retained firefighters are paid volunteers who spend up to 120 hours a week on call from home or work. The majority fulfil that impressive commitment in addition to a paid day job; it is not the sort of thing that anyone does for money. These are local people who care about their neighbourhoods and who want to play a role in keeping them safe.
	The concept of volunteer service is a noble one that extends across many areas of national life and it should be cherished. It predates the big society, but I dare say that it complements it nicely in the spirit of Edmund Burke's little platoons. It is about the Territorial Army soldier giving up his weekends and summer holidays to train alongside the Regular Army, taking time out from his job to deploy on operations to serve his country and all too often giving his life in the process. It is about the police special finishing her day job on a Friday evening and instead of going out with friends, putting on a police uniform and going out on patrol with her local police, helping to keep her neighbourhood safe. And it is about the retained firefighter dedicating his life to the bleeper and standing ready to respond within five minutes of a call-out, day or night. Once that bleeper goes off and the RDS crew mobilises at the fire station, they are firefighters. They wear the same uniform, use the same equipment and vehicles and attend the same incidents as their whole-time colleagues. The fire service could not function in its current form without them.
	Looking at the origins of the fire service in the UK, it could be said that the entire fire and rescue service developed from an early version of the retained service. Prior to the great fire of London in 1666, firefighting was done in a haphazard way at local parish level. It was principally carried out by townsfolk working together to extinguish fires within their communities. After 1666, local fire services started to become more organised, but it was not until the 1800s that more formal fire brigades began to evolve. Even then, some remained volunteer brigades, while others were private organisations formed by property insurers.
	The first national legislation was not seen until 1938, when first the auxiliary fire service and then the national fire service were formed. After world war two, the national fire service was taken over by local county authorities, so that in 1948 there were 148 county council and county borough-run fire brigades. Today across the UK we have 63 brigades, and with the exception of London almost all of them include RDS personnel.
	The RDS system is not perfect and much can be done to improve it. Issues surrounding training, concerns over the EU working time directive and difficulties with recruitment and retention remain. Following the 2003 White Paper, "Our Fire and Rescue Service", a review of the retained system was commissioned. The report of that review, which was published in 2005, made 51 specific recommendations aimed at improving the effectiveness of the RDS, but it is worth noting that it opened with the words:
	"The retained duty system is a valued, vital element of the modern fire and rescue service".
	Although the previous Government were perhaps a little slow in starting to implement the recommendations, the picture has clearly improved in recent years with, for example, a reduction in vacancies in RDS posts from 20% in 2003-4 to 13% in 2008-9. There is more work to do, however, and those recommendations from the 2005 review that remain outstanding should be looked at in detail by the coalition Government.
	This debate is about the retained fire service in general, but it is well known in the House that I and my fellow Warwickshire MPs have a number of concerns that relate to changes in the provision of fire and rescue services in Warwickshire in particular. In my own constituency, the fire station in the town of Bedworth has faced the uncertainty of potential closure for many months. We have only recently learned the details of options that the county council will consider next week. Many people in Bedworth will be relieved and delighted that it appears that Bedworth fire station will now remain open, but other fire stations in Warwickshire have not been so fortunate.
	From what we know, it appears that Bedworth fire station will be manned in future exclusively by RDS personnel, so the decision is timely and relevant to this debate. I recognise that many people in Bedworth will remain concerned about what could be seen as a reduction in the station's capacity. I confess to holding mixed views. I would have preferred the station to have remained as it was, but I also recognise that the hard work, the campaigning and the clear message that local people in Bedworth sent to the chief fire officer have resulted in probably the best compromise that we could have hoped for.
	The worst possible outcome for us-one that looked like a very real possibility for a long time-would have been for Bedworth to lose our fire station all together. It looks as though we will end up with a compromise: Bedworth fire station staying open, but as a retained station. In doing so, it will join the 54% of all fire stations in the UK that are manned solely by RDS firefighters. It is therefore with mixed feelings that I declare my delight that people power seems to have won the day and Bedworth will continue to have our own fire station. That is a testament to the hard work and campaigning of so many local people, including those in the Fire Brigades Union and the Retained Firefighters Union, the friends and family of local firefighters and many others. I am proud to have played a role in helping to save Bedworth station.
	I am making quicker progress than I expected-perhaps one or two other hon. Members may wish to speak for a little longer than two minutes-but before I conclude, I will say that I am not a big fan of lists of statistics; but sometimes, even in this place, a few facts can be helpful to a debate, so I hope the House will indulge me. About one third of the 42,000 firefighters in England are retained firefighters, but even that statistic masks just how much we rely on these volunteers. Retained firefighters are responsible for operating 60% of all fire engines in England. Because they are more prevalent in rural areas, RDS firefighters provide emergency cover for a staggering 90% of the UK's land mass. Some 54% of fire stations in the UK are manned solely by RDS firefighters, and at any one time in England, there are more retained firefighters on call and providing emergency cover than full-time firefighters. It is clear that we rely on our retained firefighters in a way that few casual observers of our emergency services would realise, but they can continue to support us only if we continue to support them.

Nadhim Zahawi: We have heard a most eloquent speech from my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) about retained firefighters and their importance to their communities and to the fire service itself. He is fortunate in having some certainty about Bedworth fire station; unfortunately, I cannot report the same to the House from Stratford-on-Avon.
	Our chief fire officer has had the difficult task of drawing up proposals for improving Warwickshire's fire and rescue service. He took on the role from his predecessor after a difficult period involving a consultation process that I think Warwickshire Members would agree was flawed. That process did a lot of damage to the community's confidence in the fire service and in a decision-making process that could lead to such unfortunate events.
	The county council will discuss and evaluate three options for Warwickshire on Friday, two of which are extremely negative for us in Stratford-on-Avon. I will not dwell too long on those, but I shall speak about the third option, which is positive in the sense that we would retain Bidford and Studley fire stations.
	Let me say a few words about the response of retained firefighters and the local community to the consultation on improving Warwickshire's fire services. The way in which they have reacted has been exemplary. They have not been a barrier to change and improvement; indeed, their approach has been proactive, and when they were asked to step up to the mark, they did so by putting forward a credible set of proposals. Those proposals have made their way into option C, which involves retaining Bidford and Studley fire stations, and perhaps into option B, which would retain Bidford although, unfortunately, we would lose Studley.
	I am worried that the chief fire officer has heavily skewed the process due to his announcement in his report that he prefers the option under which we would lose those retained fire stations and their good fire personnel. He has stated that
	"All three models will improve the level of resources available in Warwickshire for community fire safety, dealing with small fires, road traffic incidents and incidents of flooding",
	so I am slightly concerned and puzzled about why he would choose option A, given that option C would certainly be a credible approach.
	I am aware that other Members wish to speak, but before I conclude, I wish to make a point about the idea that we need to improve fire safety. Many members of the public erroneously believe that their safety depends primarily on the proximity of a fire station.

Brandon Lewis: I agree with my hon. Friend's comment about fire safety. Norfolk county council's fire review is examining saving money as well as improving the service, but consideration is being given to spending more on management in Great Yarmouth yet losing 14 retained firemen. At this time, does he agree that we should all do our best in our communities to put pressure on local authorities so that they do not spend money on management and instead do the logical thing of keeping in place front-line services such as retained firemen?

Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend raises an important point, which I hope will be taken on board not only in Great Yarmouth, but in Warwickshire when the deliberations take place on Friday.
	The chief fire officer says that there will be
	"a significant increase in community fire safety"
	if option A is chosen, implying that having a single fire station and closing the retained fire station would mean that we would get more fire safety education in the community. I believe the opposite is true: that the closer that human beings are to their community, the more trusted their opinion will be and the more trust the community will have in improving fire safety, which is the drive for the fire service to get fire alarms into homes and prevent fires rather than react to them.
	I hope that on Friday the county council will evaluate the proposals before them. I have made telephone calls today to all the cabinet, as well as writing to them personally, to say that they should look at all the options very carefully. They have promised me that they will do so and that they will look in great detail at option C and B. I implore them to do the right thing and make sure that we retain our stations in Stratford-on-Avon, whose staff are crucial to the community. That would send a positive message that we have listened to the wishes of the community and it would build a strong bridge with the local communities of Bidford and Studley.

Marcus Jones: I will try to be brief as we are short on time. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) on securing this important debate. The House should honour and value the role of retained firefighters, and I want to cite a specific and local example of the superb work that they do, which occurred in the Delamere road area in Bedworth in my hon. Friend's constituency.
	To set the scene, on a Saturday lunchtime in December 2008, a local community was engulfed in a severe flood within minutes. To their credit, the retained firefighters from Bedworth fire station, which I am glad is still very much in the thoughts of Warwickshire country council and Warwickshire fire service, reacted superbly. They attended within several minutes and carried out a diligent professional operation, which helped the residents of that area who were under pressure at that time, some of whose lives were at risk, not to mention the risk to property. They were helped through the first few hours of that crisis by Warwickshire fire service and the retained firefighters from Bedworth.
	I mainly wanted to mention the dedication and service that our retained firefighters provide to our communities, in which the Government should support them, particularly with regard to training and ensuring that they have the right equipment, not only to keep the retained firefighters motivated, but to maintain public confidence in the excellent service that they provide.

Chris White: My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) is correct to highlight the key role of retained firefighters throughout the country. I am fortunate to have in my constituency a station staffed by retained firefighters. Sadly it is under threat, as are many other stations throughout Warwickshire.
	At a time when we anticipate large-scale cuts to the public sector, something that the fire service is preparing for, it would be short-sighted to reduce the number of retained firefighters, yet that is exactly what has been proposed in my constituency. Retained firefighters combine high-quality service with flexibility, and as we seek to keep a lean and effective fire service, they are essential. How can it be right, at a time when we have an admitted skills shortage and ever-growing demands on our fire service, to get rid of these vital individuals who not only help to protect the public but do so with considerable savings to the taxpayer?
	Having had the pleasure, as I am sure many hon. Members have, of meeting and talking to retained firefighters, I am proud of the work that they do. We often bandy around the words "civic duty", but retained firefighters embody the very essence of that term. Being community-minded, they potentially risk their lives to protect ours.

Sarah Newton: I very much appreciate my hon. Friend giving way and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) on securing the debate. If it were not for retained fire officers in Cornwall, we would not have an effective fire service. If the citizens of Cornwall are to have a fire service, retained officers are essential. I hope that the Minister will address the points that my hon. Friends have made about the impact of the EU working time directive. It is a constant threat to retained firefighters, because it will impede them in delivering the vital service that they provide for Cornwall and throughout the country.

Chris White: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. To add to that, what sort of example are we setting if we so easily ignore the contribution of our retained firefighters? I hope that this debate will encourage fire services and local authorities throughout the country to recognise the value of retained firefighters and ensure that they continue to have a long-term future.

Bob Neill: It is a pleasure to respond to this debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) on securing it, on the elegant way in which he put his case and on his generosity in allowing several other hon. Members to participate. His recital of the history of the fire service reminded me of my own rather lengthy association with the organisation, although I do not go back quite as far as some of the reforms that my hon. Friend mentioned-despite rumours to the contrary.
	I am delighted to agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of the fire service. I fully appreciate just how vital the retained duty system is to the effectiveness of emergency cover in many parts of the country, particularly in protecting our small towns and rural communities and providing a crucial element of the national resilience arrangements. Retained duty system firefighters, as my hon. Friends have said, make up more than 30% of the fire and rescue service's operational personnel and provide crews to something like 54% of all fire stations in England.
	As I said in my speech to the UK fire and rescue conference in Harrogate at the end of last month, the vital and significant contribution of the retained duty system provides an excellent example of how localism and the big society are already embedded within parts of the fire service, and I welcome that recognition from my hon. Friends.
	I can confirm that the Government greatly value the contribution of firefighters employed on the retained duty system. They are the backbone of many services, and in some cases they form more than 70% of the operational work force. I had the pleasure of making that point directly to the national officers of the Retained Firefighters Union when I met them as an early priority after my appointment.
	Throughout the country, retained firefighters undertake a range of roles, responding to emergencies of all kinds, such as heathland fires, floods, ship fires and chemical spills. Many are also involved in the delivery of community fire safety advice, and others take part in the co-responding programme as first responders to medical emergencies, such as heart attacks. They bring great flexibility and value for money to our system. As active members of their community, retained duty crews provide an excellent demonstration of the effectiveness of the localist approach to service delivery, and I agree that they are dedicated and highly motivated men and women who do an excellent job for their communities.
	In some parts of the country, the system has been affected by long-standing recruitment and retention difficulties, but I hope that a number of measures that are now available will help to support the fire and rescue service in overcoming those challenges. We have to recognise that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to what can be quite complex local issues, particularly given the changes to the organisation of rural life, the social change in areas served by the retained duty system and the competing pressures on busy people's time. However, that has led to the development of initiatives such as an employers' information toolkit for fire and rescue services to use in establishing and building links with businesses in their community, and an employers' recognition scheme designed to be run locally by fire and rescue services to acknowledge the contribution by employers in their area who release staff for retained duties.
	We are undertaking an extensive survey of the retained duty system, looking at how the nature of the retained role may have changed in recent years; how demographic changes may be impacting on that, as with the economic situation; how the service is addressing recruitment and retention, and managing those pressures; and how the RDS work force are trained, developed and utilised. That survey will deliver vital evidence that will inform discussions by fire and rescue authorities on issues affecting this valued sector of the work force; so, too, will the proposed strategic review of the fire service that I announced at the Harrogate conference. I hope that we will use the opportunity of the survey and the review to encourage fire and rescue authorities to make more imaginative use of the resource of retained duty fire fighter.
	It is necessary to say a few words about the economic background with which the service has to deal. The Budget of 22 June set out the Government's five-year plan to rebuild the British economy based on our values of responsibility, freedom and fairness. It shows how we will carry out Britain's unavoidable deficit reduction plan in a way that strengthens and unites the country. In these challenging times, the fire and rescue service, alongside other public services providers, will have an important role to play in helping to deliver those spending reductions. We will look to the sector to be innovative in making savings and in improving efficiencies, while at the same time recognising that its core business is a front-line role, which must of course be given appropriate priority. It is therefore right that many of the proposals contained in integrated risk management plans-across the country, not only in Warwickshire-are aimed at increasing efficiency because, by doing so, fire and rescue authorities can maximise the amount of risk-reducing activity that they can deliver from the resources available to them.
	That is the key point. The aim should still be to ensure excellent service delivery. Efficiency is about working more effectively, using less public money to deliver as good, or better, public services. That means that despite reductions in spending, there should not be a visible reduction in service, nor a reduction in performance. There will be difficult decisions to make, but the fire and rescue service has a track record of delivery, and I am sure that it will step up to the mark to deal with this.
	My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire, and my other hon. Friends, referred to the position in Warwickshire, and I understand why they did so. I note in passing that present in his place, and keeping me company on the Treasury Bench, is my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), whose position does not permit him to take part in the debate but who takes an active interest in this matter as a Warwickshire Member of Parliament.
	I have spoken at length about the overall position of the retained duty system. Of course, my hon. Friends have referred to the proposals in Warwickshire and the possible closure of some fire stations that forms part of those proposals. As they will recall, the implications of the changes set out in Warwickshire fire and rescue authority's improvement plan were debated in Westminster Hall on 30 June. I am sure that in making its decision, Warwickshire county council will take into account all the views expressed during the consultation exercise, and I have no doubt that my hon. Friends who have spoken powerfully tonight will ensure that the authority takes their views into account. I am sure that as a responsible fire authority it will do so.
	However, as I explained in the earlier debate, it would be inappropriate for Ministers to comment on the specific proposals that have been put forward and consulted on by Warwickshire fire and rescue authority. The principle of local determination of local solutions for local circumstances means that it would not be appropriate for me to seek to influence the decisions that the authority will be faced with on 20 July in light of the representations to it. The whole point of the locally determined risk approach is that it is for local authorities to take such decisions, and I am confident that they will do so responsibly. I am sure my hon. Friends will understand why it is not appropriate for me to say more on the specifics, but they have ventilated their case with vigour.
	I close by saying that earlier today I was at Winchester cathedral, representing Her Majesty's Government at a memorial service for two brave firefighters who died on duty in Southampton. They were full-time firefighters, but the risks run by firefighters draw no distinction between those who are full time and those who are retained, and there have been tragic deaths among retained firefighters in recent times as well. All of them-every one-are brave and courageous men and women doing their best for this country, and they deserve our support.
	 House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 9(7)).
	Correction
	 Official Report, 13 July 2010: In Division No. 20, at col. 908, add Sharon Hodgson to the Ayes.